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Lead Into It is your go-to podcast for real, actionable leadership insights—no title required. Whether you're leading a team, a project, or just yourself, host Sara Greco brings you powerful conversations with leaders from corporate, nonprofit, hospitality, the U.S. military, and beyond. Each episode delivers tactical tools, fresh perspectives, and lasting inspiration to help you lead with confidence in your career and life.
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45: From Colonel to Cacao: A Leadership Journey with Maria Carl
What do you get when a 23-year Air Force Colonel trades her uniform for a machete and cacao seedlings? Meet Maria Carl, who went from leading global military teams to running a thriving Hawaiian chocolate farm.
Ten years ago, she and her husband bought a wild 10-acre plot on Oahu. What started as a dream home project turned into 21 Degrees Estate – an award-winning cacao farm known for world-class chocolate and an incredible sense of community.
Maria’s story is all about reinvention. She took the leadership skills she built over decades in the military and applied them to farming, sustainability, and building something truly meaningful. Her take? “You’d be surprised how transferable your skills are—and how many good ideas people have if you actually listen.”
If you’ve ever thought about making a big life change, this episode is for you.
Check out the farm at 21degreesestatehawaii.com.
Let’s keep the conversation going—connect with me on Instagram and LinkedIn, subscribe to my Sunday newsletter, or reach out at sara@leadintoitco.
Excited to be back with you!
Hi, this is Sara and you're listening to episode 45 of the Lead Into it podcast. Hey there, and welcome back to Lead Into it. You are in for a treat today, literally. I sat down with Maria Carl, a retired Air Force colonel with over two decades of service, who traded in her uniform and started a cacao farm in Hawaii. Yeah, you heard that right. She and her husband, also a retired military officer, launched 21 Degrees Estate, a family-owned boutique cacao farm nestled on 10 acres on the island of Oahu.
Sara :From finding the right land to planting over a thousand cacao trees, their journey is one of vision, grit and a whole lot of adaptability. But this isn't just a story about farming. It's about building community, creating something meaningful after military life and leaning into purpose-driven leadership. Maria shares her hard-won wisdom from her time in uniform, how she brought that same resilience and adaptability to building the farm, and what leadership looks like now, rooted in soil, service and a whole lot of heart. So grab your favorite chocolate bar, settle in and let's get into it Awesome. Well, thank you so much, maria, for coming on the show. I really appreciate it and I'm excited to learn more about everything that's kind of led you up to this point and hear more about the chocolate farm and possibly the goats too, because those are really cute when we came.
Sara :Yeah, and the goats.
Maria:Well, thank you, sarah, and thanks so much for including me on the on the podcast. It's it's really, uh, it's fun to be here and to talk about it. We always I say we, being myself and my husband Michael, who are the, the two owners of the 21 Degrees Estate Cacao Farm love to talk about the farm. We call it our grand adventure and actually this year this is kind of good that we're doing this, because this year marks our 10-year what we call farmiversary from when we kind of embarked on this adventure, and so it's really been a fun and interesting journey along the way for us, and so we enjoy talking and that's really. You know, sarah, you were recently on one of our tours and that's actually one of the things we say at the beginning of every tour, which is we enjoy giving the tours. We typically give all the tours ourselves, and mostly because we love to tell about this journey of ours and it's just fun for us to kind of share with others.
Sara :For sure, and I loved hearing about the journey there. The only thing I thought about, I think, during the entire tour was like, obviously the chocolate. And then second was just how cool this journey because we met each other it's what.
Maria:10 years More than that, because I've been retired for longer than that. Yeah, it would have to be longer than that.
Sara :that because I've been retired for longer than that. Yeah, yeah, it would have to be longer than that. So, um, when I was stationed in Korea and it's you were a Colonel at the time and you came out for a base visit, you visited our team at Osan and it was just really cool to meet you in that way. And then, um, we stayed in touch in different ways, shape and form, um, and I know that you stay in touch with a lot of different public affairs officers, so that's really fun. When I told them that I was interviewing you, they're like she's great, I'm so excited to hear the episode.
Sara :And then I knew that when we went to go visit Hawaii in October, I was like I need to go finally see this cacao farm, because I had seen all the things about it and was so interested in just, I mean, what is it like to own a cacao farm? And then to be there, see what you've done in just 10 years and I can't believe it's been 10 years, cause I was thinking how cool is it that I kind of know somebody that owns a cacao farm, like how many people can say that and then to see what you've been able to accomplish and how cool and inviting and welcoming and just so interesting how you've kind of created this journey. So we're definitely going to dive into a lot of this. But I'm so excited to talk to you today and have everyone kind of listen to where you've come to and I think just I feel inspired by what you've been able to do throughout your life.
Maria:Well, thank you. Yeah, well, no, and also shout out to all my public affairs peeps I love, I just love. You know, every now and then I get people from my previous life right in the Air Force, but also specifically in public affairs, and it's always so much fun to catch up. And you know we'll probably talk about it, you know, throughout the podcast this morning. But certainly the skill sets we all know about in public affairs come into play almost daily.
Maria:Well for sure, Certainly daily in, in in what I do now. So yes, definitely.
Sara :Well, and speaking of kind of your journey, I'd love to for the audience to learn a bit more about your journey from Air Force Colonel to cow farmer and industry leader. Could you tell us a little bit more about your journey from Air Force colonel to cacao farmer and industry leader? Could you tell us a little bit more about yourself and kind of that journey that brought you to the cacao?
Maria:farm. Sure, I would say it's probably not the most linear journey because a lot of people say, gosh, how do you get from A to Z? Basically. But no, I started out I was an ROTC scholarship student in college for undergraduate, and so I knew that I would be commissioned into the Air Force upon graduation. So right off the bat I was doing that and spent 23 years serving in the Air Force, all of those years as a public affairs officer, all of those years as a public affairs officer.
Maria:And you know it's funny because when I did start out in ROTC, I did not necessarily know that I would make the Air Force a career at that time. It was honestly something I was interested in trying on and also, of course, for the educational benefits at the time. But what I discovered is that the Air Force really kept me interested and they kept offering me really great opportunities, both professionally and educationally. But also just, I enjoyed doing it. I enjoyed the people I worked with and the mission that we were doing, and I really enjoyed public affairs most of the time. As you know, yeah, you don't love everything all the time, but all of it makes us grow right and a lot of times we learn more from the tougher times than we do from the easier times. So, yeah, my career, 23 years. I started out as a brand-new lieutenant, also in Asia, but I was in Japan at Yokota Air Base and then, you know, throughout my time I was stationed in Texas and Turkey and Italy and the Pentagon a couple of times, and down at the space mission there in Florida, where you are but down at Cape Canaveral, and then and then, of course, deployments, as we all have done, and so a year in Kabul and different locations, the Balkans and so on. And then my last assignment, I went to what we call the Air War College for the non-military folks on the podcast, kind of a year of professional development. Mine was at Fort McNair in Washington DC and yeah, and that was let's see, was that that was right.
Maria:After I got back from Afghanistan and spent a year there and that's what I found that I was going to be assigned to Hawaii next. Well, I was pretty excited about that. It hasn't taken me about 20 years hoping to get to Hawaii. I'd always wanted to be stationed here, but in any case, yeah, I was excited at that time, not just to be coming to Hawaii, which sounded great, but really for the mission, because the Pacific mission is just such a dynamic and important and complex one. And so professionally, that was very interesting too, but you know I'll tell you. And so professionally, that was very interesting too, but you know, I'll tell you, at that point in my career I had spent most of my time in DC and that kind of felt like home.
Maria:And so I just kind of assumed that when I finished my time here at Pacific Air Force headquarters that I would probably return to the Pentagon. That would seem like a likely choice. That would seem like a likely choice. And if you had told me that I was going to be getting married having a baby, by the way, which I did at the time at 44, and then also starting a cacao farm, I would have said what you know, this seems kind of incongruous, but it's exactly what happened and it all worked out the way it should have.
Maria:And then, just kind of following that line, when I first retired I didn't immediately get into cacao farming. I was actually working. I was hired here to be a executive vice president for a local PR agency, which I'm so grateful for because I actually learned. It was a wonderful segue for me to really learn about business here in Hawaii and Honolulu, because it is a unique environment, and so that was great for that purpose, but also for me. It was also a wonderful transition to learn about really business because, you know, having spent so much time working in government, you don't always have a lot of the same skills that are required to succeed in business, like you know, in terms of budget, specific kinds of budgets, but contracts and different things that I had not had a lot of experience with. So that was all really good for me and then was able to launch, you know, myself into my own private consulting, which I did for a number of years, and in communications for a number of years in communications, and then I did a brief sojourn.
Maria:At that time my husband and I decided we of course had decided to stay in Hawaii. He was already here and we were looking to build a house. This is how it actually all started and I said well, if we're going to build a house, we need to find some land, and I really want to be on the windward side of the island. If you're familiar with Oahu, you have this very different topographical kind of environment. On the windward side it's very lush and tropical, it's the rainforest and on the other side it's drier, more like a Southern California environment. So I really want to be on that lush, tropical side.
Maria:But we discovered very quickly that land is very difficult to find on Oahu and typically the land that is available is zoned as ag land, which in fact is what we ultimately bought. And so that got us thinking oh, we need to probably think about something to grow. And what should that be? And well, let's make it something unique to Hawaii. You know it's great to grow lettuce, but we can do that anywhere. So if we're going to be in Hawaii, let's make it something interesting and then, kind of flowing from that was this concept, and we can talk about vision a little bit more later. But you know just something that people would maybe want to come visit. So anyway, that's how we ended up on cacao. But I did spend a few, a couple of years actually working. I was hired by a former public affairs officer, colonel Jada Frank, to come work out at Pratt Whitney in Connecticut. So I did do that. Well, at that point we had already bought the farm but we're waiting on the trees to grow.
Sara :So you know that was kind of part of it all, but so I mean, first, I love this, these types of stories where it's like, if you look back, it makes sense, but on the journey itself you're like well, I don't really know how I got here, but it's cool, like it worked.
Sara :So I'm not going to complain, and I'm embracing it at this point, so I love those types of stories. When it comes to cacao, you basically had to learn the farming industry from the ground up, though, right, so going from Air Force to communications, to cacao, and the farm that you had didn't originally have the cacao trees yet, correct.
Maria:Yeah, so yeah, so that's a great point, so yeah, so obviously, up to that point I had really spent 25 years really honing my skills in communications, public affairs and all the kinds of aspects of that along that communication spectrum and primarily in the defense industry. Right, that was kind of my focus, my expertise, and in a large bureaucratic government organization. So all of these things were kind of my area of interest and expertise. And then, to some extent, a corporate environment, but again, large organizations, still defense related for the most part. And so, yes, when we had this idea of, okay, we're going to buy some land and start a cacao farm, that suddenly launched us. By the way, I should mention my husband's, also retired military. So we're very similar in kind of this background, but we really had to launch ourselves into a completely new industry, obviously agriculture being the primary one. But in the end it's actually I often call it kind of this intersection of many different industries, many different sectors. Of course, there's the agriculture part of it, with the cacao itself, and oh, by the way, we're also beekeepers, so we're in that, in apiary services, but we also are in growing turmeric and a lot of other tropical fruits too. So, yeah, all of this agriculture, tropical agriculture, specifically and then secondly, really, you know, in the kind of hospitality and tourism sector, because we give tours and tastings and we do events and things. And then, thirdly, really kind of the culinary industry, because there's so many collaborations that we do with chefs, with sommeliers, when we do tastings and pairings and so on. All of this we've had to really kind of, you know, learn about and get to be familiar with. To the environmental sector too, because we're doing some forestry projects and we're always having to work on a lot of different kind of mitigation, environmental mitigation issues on the farm itself how do we mitigate for a lot of rainfall, like we just said last week, for example, you know, and things like that.
Maria:So, yeah, really kind of going from one sector that we're very familiar with to this intersection of many other new sectors was, yeah, was really new and challenging.
Maria:And I will say that from the beginning we were very fortunate to have mentors and you know, I think that's true in any industry, right that you're in, but for us, going completely into new sectors, it was essential and I really credit those early mentors for us as so important to what we were doing, but also just throwing ourselves into it, you know, very gutlessly, you know, just learning as much as we possibly could, learning as much as we possibly could.
Maria:I actually went back and did a master's in agriculture and I sought out and got my chocolate sommelier certification, which, gosh, I never even knew existed before that. And so, yeah, and then my husband really was day to day learning about the agriculture, growing the trees, and, as you said, we bought this piece of property and we call it the jungle farm because at the time it had really been for the most part, kind of neglected for about 10 years. It had belonged to kind of a mainland owner who had bought it kind of as an investment, and so it doesn't take long on that side of the island for things to grow. And it was a jungle when we got it, so we had to kind of really clear it and kind of see what was there and then plant all the cacao, and so, yeah, that was the beginning.
Sara :The beginning of the cacao farm as it is. So what would you say? What role has, like leadership played in when you shape your career transitions? And then kind of the vision you've built for this cacao farm, which you I'd love to also know about the name as well 21 degrees.
Maria:Yeah Well, so I'll start with the name, because that's easy. So 21 degrees actually refers to our location here on Oahu Island. The latitude for Oahu is just about 21 degrees north latitude exactly, and the reason we chose that for our name is because cacao is really only grown about 20 degrees north or south of the equator, so essentially the world's tropical growing zone, which makes sense. Right, it's a rainforest tree, but it means then, at 21 degrees, we're really here at the north pole of that growing zone, and there's some kind of pros and cons for being located this far north, but mostly advantages. And so we thought that would be a good name for us.
Maria:Also because cacao is very similar to, let's say, wine grapes, in the sense that it's very sensitive to its terroir factors, right?
Maria:So all the different climate changes, temperature changes, rainfall, all these different things will affect the final flavor of the chocolate, just as you get with wine grapes right for wine in different vineyards.
Maria:We call this single origin, and so when we talk about the very specific origin that the cacao is being grown, it really means that the resulting chocolate has this unique flavor profile associated with it. So Hawaii is really well suited for this because we have so many unique microclimates in a relatively small space and that really translates to this wonderful diversity of flavor profiles. And so 21 Degrees Estate, our farm, which is only 10 acres, but you know the trees are very compact and the orchards it actually constitutes its own single origin. It means we have a unique flavor profile that you won't find anywhere else in the world. Even here on the island, other cacao that's been grown will have a different flavor profile than ours. So yeah, so that's kind of the reason that the location is so important when it comes to cacao and craft chocolate specifically, and so we decided to go with that for our name. But the first part of your question was kind of leading up to kind of what the different leadership kinds of things.
Sara :Yeah, how leadership has kind of played the role into transitioning from Air Force.
Maria:Yeah, well, certainly as you know, and all of us who served in the military know, leadership is really, you know, a cornerstone to what we do at every level, and we do different things at different levels, certainly, but you know what I find it's such an interesting question and when you had sent me the flow, I was thinking about this, and you know we can all talk about different aspects of leadership, but in my personal experience, in how it has kind of transferred to what I'm doing now, I mean, when you think about how radically different as I mentioned before my Air Force experience was large organization, government organization, lots of people, you know. Big mission, all these things, and now small business, you know, on a farm, you know so different. And yet what I find myself using almost daily from a leadership perspective is the ability to inspire. Right, that's kind of a universal leadership trait, but it really comes into play what I'm doing now Because, unlike you know, if I'm in a corporate environment, the team I'm leading is, you know, is there because they believe in okay, in the mission. But they're also there because this is their career, this is their job. In the Air Force, people are there not just because it's a job, but because they're there to serve and they have a stronger calling to serve their country in this capacity, and so inspiration takes on a little bit more import in that field too.
Maria:But at the cacao farm we don't have a huge staff. A lot of times it's just my husband and me, and we do have a few people that come on here and there for different events. But what we do have, that we never could have predicted when we started this venture 10 years ago, is this incredible sense of community, community volunteers in particular, who say you know, raise their head and say, oh, how can I come help at your farm? I mean, wow, how amazing is that? I mean, and we get that all the time. In fact, here's an interesting but vital aspect to our operations we have to harvest cacao every two weeks year round, and I mean it's a major job. We have a thousand trees and we're having to harvest by hand every single fruit, every single pod that's what we call them and then crack each one open by hand, remove all the wet seed. All this is done by hand, and I can't even fathom what we would have to pay in labor to accomplish this, and it's certainly so much work to do for just two or three people. We have 25 to 30 volunteers who come and harvest for us every two weeks. It's really extraordinary, I mean. We are just blown away by it every time, and some of these people have been there from the beginning.
Maria:But the point is, managing volunteers and inspiring volunteers is a type of leadership that really. I think that really comes into play and I know so many of these people are such amazing now friends obviously as well, but volunteers, people who obviously are there, yeah, because they're having fun and they're interested in it, but they really want to give back to the community, to the environment. But there's also this real sense of community within the volunteers themselves. And so I find, you know, a lot of times I'm having to kind of lead in inspirational ways. What you know, come to the farm, be a part of this, be a part of this community. So that is where I see kind of the leadership in play a lot, and then also just a lot of just coordination too, just kind of leadership and management and coordination, because we have so many just disparate missions and jobs that we're doing on the farm and kind of pulling it all together too. Yeah.
Sara :And I mean. It's a similar mindset, it seems, from the Air Force to farming. It's inspiring people to come together to do one mission or a similar mission and see the accomplishment. I love how you just translated that, though, because it's not something once you realized what needed to happen, but to know that all these people are willing to help, support you and what your mission is. I think that's incredible, and it must be really fun for them.
Maria:Well, that's yeah, we're fortunate in that. It's like again, if we were a lettuce farm, I don't know that we'd have that many volunteers, but maybe we would. I don't know, hawaii is kind of a unique place that way. But you know, the other thing I should probably mention kind of under this topic too, is that. So we started the farm, like I said, 10 years ago. It took about three to four years just to kind of get the trees growing Right.
Maria:So we started, we kind of set out with this vision. We said we're going to kind of divide this into kind of three, three phases. The first stage is the agriculture. Let's get the trees in the ground, let's get the land prepped and get the trees in the ground, because it's going to take a while. We didn't even know Again, first time. Cacao farmers were told it's going to take. It could take three to five years to get the first fruit. As it turns out, this area, kahalu, where our farm is located, is uniquely suited for cacao. Yay, that's great. Which meant we were getting fruit as early as 18 months, which was much, much earlier than we anticipated, which then kind of prompted us to get into production much sooner than we planned, which meant the actual production of cacao into chocolate, which then prompted us to get into phase two, which was the retail operation of what we're doing. We wanted to do the full value chain of you know, cacao into actual retail craft chocolate bars.
Maria:And like any agricultural operation, especially small family farms across the US, it can be really challenging, right? Because a lot of times farmers are only getting kind of pennies on the dollar of what they're selling, whether it's milk or, you know, berries or apples or whatever it is. And so in the case of cocoa beans, in an expensive place like Hawaii, if you're just selling cocoa beans you're probably not going to be able to break even. And so if we could kind of get into production and then make the chocolate and then sell the chocolate bars at the farm and have a store and all of that, well, okay, then we could probably. You know that would be more advantageous, you know, economically it'd be more profitable to do that. So that meant we had to suddenly get chocolate makers and have chocolate made, and then you have to do packaging and then you have to do, you know, marketing and all the things that come with that. So we were suddenly propelled into phase two, which was but we're still doing phase one all the agriculture, and now we're doing phase two. And phase three, by the way, was to build our house, which we, by the way, we've never even gotten to that point yet. So, because we've been so busy with all these other phases in between.
Maria:But what came along pretty quickly, even while we were in phase two, was that we people were showing interest in coming to visit the farm and wanted to do a tour of the farm, and we were giving all these kind of just like ad hoc tours all the time. And finally we said let's just start giving tours. We don't feel like we're a hundred percent ready, but I don't think we ever will be, so let's just get started. So we started doing tours and we've been doing tours now for at least six years and it's you know, it's been a steady state thing. And then that became a part of our business model because essentially, if people were coming to the farm already to give a tour, then a lot of times they wanted to purchase chocolate at the end. So now we had a kind of a market for our retail. So, anyway, all that kind of started to happen. And then people wanted to start having events at the farm and like, could I do my wedding there to happen? And then people wanted to start having events at the farm and like, could I do my wedding there or could I, you know this and that? So we started to do farm to table dinners, and so people could you know? So then we started to get getting into all of that as well. So I guess where I'm going with this is that it really gets down to the people. And then this is I'm going to kind of touch back onto leadership again too.
Maria:But the people who come to our farm are remarkable people, like yourself, by the way. But no, really we get people from all over the world, but certainly all across the United States. And, let's face it, the people who typically want to come on a farm tour are interested. First of all, they like chocolate, probably, but they're also interested usually in food and culinary and environment and how things are made and how things are produced, and so all these kinds of people come here.
Maria:And in the beginning most of the people who came on our tours were locals who were just really curious. A lot of local people live here in Hawaii, don't even know that cacao is grown here. So they were interested and we would get to know people and find out what their backgrounds are. And a lot of those early people who came on our tours are now regular people who volunteer at our farm, that work at our farm, people who are that are like servers at our culinary events, people who are musicians at our events. Now, you know, it's we kind of joke that we recruit all of our people from our tours and we do I that we recruit all of our people from our tours and we do I mean we actually do and it's great because it's really just a big family.
Maria:We say ohana here in Hawaii, but it's just a really great ohana that way, and it kind of gets down to you know, whatever environment you're in, right, you get to know the people that you're working with and find out what they're passionate about, what their skills are, and then really allow them to exercise those skills. And I think that's a big part of leadership right is to understand who your people are, what their skills are and let them shine, let them take over and especially in the areas that I'm not, you know, well-suited in. I know what those areas are, you know. Like, if I can find people who have those skills, then I want them on my team and I want to let them shine. So we do that all the time at the farm and we couldn't do what we do without them For sure.
Sara :That's really cool and believe me, if I was anywhere close to the line.
Maria:I would definitely go down there. We would find a role for you, Sarah.
Sara :No doubt about it. I mean for sure, because I I think we were figuring during the tour you show how you kind of harvest and what it looks like. Yeah, I mean a little snippet of it and it was. It's so interesting to imagine the massiveness of starting to plant, like first clearing the farm and then planting the trees, and then realizing that they're coming on so fast that you're like, okay, we'll have to do all the other steps along the way.
Sara :So I mean, from what I'm hearing, it sounds like the moral of the story is just get started. It's kind of like that movie Remember what's the movie?
Maria:If you build it, they will come, come. What was the one with kevin, the baseball movie? I can't think of it. You know, yes, field of dreams, we always kind of joke if you build it, they will come. Um, it's kind of like that and, and it was, it was a bit. We always kind of laugh, we're about our own naivete about, oh, let's just start a cacao farm, you know, because neither of us were tropical farmers right before that. Um, but I'll tell you, you know, anyone who served in the military knows, you know, a lot of it is just a lot of.
Maria:It's just grit and hard work, right, you just like roll up your sleeves and get to it and you find your mentors and you learn and you study. Right, that's what we all did Lots of training, lots of education, but also just get down to it. And so a lot of it right is what is it? What percentage of perspiration, you know, and 5% inspiration, whatever the you know the expression is. But yeah, that's a big part of it for sure, and you know. And so we didn't really know what to expect in the beginning. But we said, well, we're just going to jump in and we're just going to do it and we're going to apply everything we know to it. And those skill sets actually, you know, have been good for us.
Maria:And you know, looking back on it, we sometimes joke and said we wanted to find, we wanted to grow something that was interesting and something that people would want to come and see and something that could, but not too much work, right. Well, we got most of it right, but the not too much work part. We didn't probably get that completely right, but that's okay. We, we love what we do and and now it's funny. So my husband again, who had no farming background whatsoever, although he was quite a good gardener, I will say, um, he had no farming background, certainly, and um, now he actually is a is a mentor to other cacao farmers in hawaii now and and regularly runs kind of workshops and things for them. But yeah, so it's. Yeah, we, we call it train the trainer, right, and we're always like kind of doing those those kinds of things and giving back because we had some great mentors at the beginning.
Sara :That's amazing. I'd love to go back to your Air Force career. Yeah, cause you. I mean, we're talking a lot about the cacao farm, which is super interesting and inspiring, but you also had a really interesting career too. It sounds like a lot of your leadership skills and the groundwork and the foundation for what you've built today was built also in your time in the air force. If you look at your LinkedIn just the top line, it's like you led communication efforts across Asia Pacific, the Pentagon and NATO, which are all really high level. Yeah, so what would you say? Some of the most pivotal moments in your military career? Kind of deep to that leadership style.
Maria:Yeah, no, I will say you know, one of the things I love so much about my, my personal military career but I just I think it's such a great experience for anyone who served for any period of time really is that there's so much opportunity, and for me I really enjoyed the fact that there was. Even though I stayed in public affairs throughout my 23 years, there was so much diversity in that career, so many different levels, that you can learn at from what we call a base level, right, kind of a more tactical level, all the way up to these more strategic levels where you're getting into communication, you know, at the country level right, united States level or NATO in the case of our allies, and different things, and then in between, and so from a communication standpoint, you can really learn so many different aspects of communication, but also at all these different levels and different audiences and so on, and so for me that was what was amazing, and you're doing it at a pretty young age too. You know, I always see the military as one of those organizations where it gives young officers in this case, but young people across the board, even in the enlisted corps a lot of leadership responsibility early on and you know you grow from that and I think for me that was good. So, gosh, to be able to identify a few pivotal things. That's going to be kind of hard because there were so many good ones, but I'll see what I can do. You know so my career I came in in 1990 and retired in 2013. I came in in 1990 and retired in 2013.
Maria:So that was kind of I give those kind of right and left brackets, because there was kind of the pre-9-11 and then the post-9-11. And so one of the things that was interesting, right before 9-11, I was at the Pentagon, at the Air Force headquarters, and so our focus then was quite different. Right, it was before the war on terrorism and everything, and actually at that point it was really from a communications standpoint, telling the American people why you need an Air Force, you know, kind of a reminder, why do we need an Air Force, why do you need America's Air Force. And so we did a lot of really kind of creative, kind of marketing kinds of things at that time which ultimately were interesting for me and I learned a lot in that we did things like, you know, flying the Hicko, the Whale, back to Iceland, you know kind of these big PR, these big publicity kinds of things that would hopefully put a spotlight on the Air Force and its capabilities and why we would need them in wartime and different airframes and so on. And you know who would know that just a couple of years later, in fact, you know we would need all these airframes for these different, you know national security purposes. So that was a big moment for me.
Maria:But, yeah, you know, I would say probably the most pivotal experience for me really was my time in NATO in Kabul. For that year I kind of used to say that that was it was NATO, isaf, so obviously the mission in Afghanistan at the time global war on terrorism, but for me it was I often say it was kind of really my comprehensives, if you will, for military communications, because I ran an office there, Gosh, I think we had probably 30 people and they were, they came from gosh more than 22 countries and some people just had like a token representative that didn't even know public affairs, but they were there because I represent Poland or something. And then and then we but we had an incredible team and we had a really tough job to do. It was the first year that the, that the ISAF, that the NATO was leading the mission in Afghanistan, and this was in 2007 and 2008.
Maria:And you know, we it was very dynamic, there was a lot happening and it was a lot of.
Maria:There was loss of life, there was loss of equipment, there were casualties here and there, and you know these are made for very, sometimes very difficult right kinds of communication tasks and decisions. But I did the daily press conference there and so kind of have to answer for all those. But I also had to really learn not only to lead my own team but to really work with so many different, disparate organizations. I had a headquarters in Brussels but of course I was US and so I kind of still had my dotted line back to DC and then at the same time, you know, I was having to deconflict all the time with NGOs in the city and then the government of Afghanistan and then all the different countries you know that were represented there in NATO, and so all these people have agendas and all these people have priorities and don't always get along, and so from a communication standpoint it's very hard sometimes to de-conflict all of that and, to you know, to get that right.
Maria:And so for me it was really an exercise in leadership many times, and in diplomacy as well, and so that was, I think, probably most pivotal for me that year.
Sara :So I'm just imagining I have no idea what the setup is like, but I'm just imagining the representatives of 22 countries in like cubicles of some sort or some desks like that. You must have seen so many varieties of different cultures and how people work and who they were. I mean, we have different even just in a team of like four people in the United States. Every person is so different. How was it like leading people from different countries, from different cultures, from all the things.
Maria:It was kind of crazy actually. I mean, first I had to get to know who are these people like, what skills do they have? And, like I said, some people were phenomenal. Of course, you know, my US team was great, and then we had Australians in UK and Iceland, I mean everyone. Like we had so many people and many of them were just terrific. Others, like I said, basically I think, just got assigned go sit over there in that office because we have to represent from our country and they don't know a thing about what we're doing, and so, you know, I just had to kind of make sure we could find something for them to do. But by and large, we had really great people.
Maria:But, yeah, very different philosophies on how we conduct communications too, and, and you know, we have very distinct kinds of ways to do public affairs. In our country, you know that is based in law too, that it's independent from, say, information operations or psychological operations, but in other countries not, so A lot of times it means the same thing, and so I had a lot of people on my staff who you know were ready to jump in with all kinds of psyops and other things that we really, you know, had to kind of walk a fine line on but still respect what they came to the table with too. So that was a challenge. But I will say the other thing is as a spokesperson, cause that was my other role. So I led the office and worked for the four star, obviously in communications, but, but my other role is as a spokesperson. I was the first female spokesperson for ISAF at the time and it was kind of kind of interesting because in the beginning not only do we have all the foreign press of the BBC and all the major international press, but we had a lot of the local Afghan press corps there too and for them I think this was a little startling for them in the beginning because they didn't really know if they could ask me a question or if they should ask me a question, and they were a little intimidated in the beginning. They got so they weren't intimidated after a while, but in the beginning it was a little bit more challenging. And then I started to give joint press conferences with my Afghan counterpart too, which was also interesting because there were different agendas, a lot between what they were trying to communicate and what we were, and we had to make sure we were on the same page, which we were not always on the same page, so yeah.
Maria:So I think, yeah, the cultural piece was also, from an intercultural communication standpoint, very challenging, but also it was also very rewarding on a lot of levels too. You really could get so many amazing insights into things you never had really looked at that way before. So, yeah, so I think it was great. And I will say too, I had a couple of different deputies at the time, a Canadian and a couple of US deputies, who were phenomenal. I could not have done any of it without them Because, once again, I do believe leadership is a lot about so much capacity. But I also did the things that I was good at. And then I had wonderful deputies who could take care of the things I was not as good at and just did it brilliantly. And, yeah, and so you know, I think a good leader is able to really delegate those things out, and that comes with understanding and that self-knowledge of what your own skills are Right and then what, what really knowing your too, like you know, and what they're good at. So no-transcript.
Maria:I mean there was just pressure across the board. It was pressure on just every day.
Maria:I mean, you know just the pressure too of just being in in wartime, right, and and just gosh, oh gosh, what's happening now. It's so dynamic. You know there's a, there's troops in contact, there's troops in contact, there's you know there's been another IED explosion and we don't yet know what's happened, and and so constantly, you know, just, it was yeah, and that was for a year, so it was a lot of pressure and so you know where you wouldn't necessarily say, oh, that was my best experience in the Air Force. It's that's not the way to describe it, I think, but it was probably in many ways. Well, certainly, to answer your question about a pivotal experience, definitely, but also it was rewarding on a lot of levels, certainly. Just, yeah, I mean not only professionally and I learned so much from it, but I also really forged these deep connections with people whom I work with and just the experience in general.
Sara :So so kind of. I mean, we talked about mainly your NATO, because it was very pivotal, but how would you say your leadership approach? Uh, evolved during your Air Force career and like your leadership style, probably. Um, and how does that show up today?
Maria:Well. So I think in a way, yeah, it did kind of prepare me well for the front, because, you know, we all do have different styles and and my style was always very people-oriented it was always very much kind of like I've alluded to before understanding what their strengths are and trying to really promote not so much literally, but promote those skills in people so that they could really do their, do their best work and and succeed. And so I was. I always believed a lot in delegating and and giving people the opportunity to take the take the reins and go with it. And, as I said, that kind of was a good trans. It transferred well to what I do now, because now with volunteers they're, you know, they're not there because you're paying them, they're there because they want to be there and because they're inspired in some way to be there.
Maria:And so I feel like that leadership style really prepared me for kind of the kind of work that I do today, as opposed to, let's say, kind of a more authoritarian style which would not do well with volunteers or with what I'm doing today. So, and a big part of that too is making sure that your team has the resources they need right, that they have the training and the education to do their jobs well and so that they feel comfortable and confident in what they're doing. And so that was always very important to me while I was in the Air Force to make sure that the team had the resources that they needed and that they felt so they could feel, like I said, comfortable and confident in what they were doing. And that's true with what we do on the farm now too. And yeah, I would say that was probably for me how it evolved more, and I was more comfortable with that kind of leadership style than kind of a more authoritarian one.
Sara :And I mean I remember when I was in Korea and we would listen in on our PA calls. And I remember the team enjoying to work with you and for you, because you were very not like hands off to the point where you just kind of let them run, but you empowered them to the point where they were able to get their job done, but they also had the freedom to make decisions that were relevant and you could see that from. I mean, how far away is Korea?
Maria:from Hawaii.
Sara :It's pretty far, um. So we, we felt that even at our level. So it's it was cool to see that and I remember you coming to visit and the way that you said everyone at ease, cause we part of the visit was you actually, um, toured with some of our Korean nationals and got to meet some of the local population and had lunch and dinner. Um, and it was just interesting to see how you were. You very much went with the flow, which I was always impressed with, cause I was like this little first Lieutenant. I was like, oh my gosh, this is my first Colonel visit and I have no idea what I'm doing. Um, and it was just very easy, uh, to work with you and you going with the flow and seeing how everyone received you and how you received everyone else was it?
Maria:was amazing to see.
Sara :I think that's a skill that not many people have to empower people in that way, but also Well, thank you, I know that's.
Maria:That's great to hear. I, you know, I believe that the role of a leader I believe that now too, I mean in anything I've done throughout my life is is that a leader sets the vision right. And I had a lot of wonderful mentors in the Air Force, too many leaders who would say to me you know, Maria, you only have so many hours in the day and they get filled up very, very quickly. But the more senior you become, the more important it is to really make sure you have carved out some white space in your calendar to just think and create the vision, Because everyone's looking at the leader to lead them. Everyone's busy, Everyone's got a million jobs to do, a million tasks to do, but we got to make sure that we have a vision for where we're going and that responsibility falls on the leader. The leader needs to make sure that he or she is allowing the time in their day, in their responsibilities, to do that. And that always really stuck with me and was important for me is to say, okay, here's what our vision is, here's what we're looking to do, but then let all these amazing, talented people go out there and do it, and let all these amazing talented people go out there and do it. And I'm always, you know, I believe very strongly in the power of listening, listening to people and understanding where they're coming from. But also, boy, you know, I'm not going to be so egotistical as to say I have all the ideas and in fact, on the contrary, it's remarkable how many great ideas people have if you actually will listen.
Maria:And there's always so many different ways to do things, and I like to make sure that teams I'm working with are feeling comfortable enough to give me those ideas. And especially you mentioned, like you know, you were in Korea when I was at Headquarters Pacific. Obviously, we had people downrange in lots of locations, very different locations, right, Korea and Japan and Guam and Alaska and Hawaii. I mean, what do these things all have in common? Just that our headquarters, yeah, and so missions were different, people were different, cultures were different, and so it's you know, I need you know, to know what's happening there on the ground. You all are in the best position to tell us what, what, what your ideas are and what the challenges are. I can give you the vision on what we need to be doing in terms of the overall mission and so on, but I need, I really want those ideas, so yeah, so I think that definitely has informed you know my leadership style, certainly yeah.
Sara :Looking back on. I mean, we talked a little bit about NATO and your PAC-AFTIME and your leadership style and how you provided vision and saw the vision and empowered people. So those are some leadership lessons that you talked about today. But what do you think were some of the most important leadership lessons that you took from your Air Force career into what you're doing today and to the entrepreneurial yeah.
Maria:So again, I would say, probably at the very beginning, it would be have the vision, develop the vision for the organization or, in this case, the team, because it's much smaller level here at the farm, but nevertheless very important. We have to have a vision on where we're going and we're constantly reassessing that, like, okay, tweaking it here and there. It's this where do we want to be in five years, 10 years, what things are working and not working as well? But where do we want to be first and foremost? Who are we and what do we want to stand for? What is the legacy, in this case, of the farm?
Maria:But I think having the vision is probably the most important thing and the thing that people expect out of a leader, and I think that's where you have to really come through on that. But I also think you know, you know we learned this in the Air Force and in all of our leadership courses but every leader is also a follower in some capacity too, right, and certainly in a large organization there's always going to be someone that's probably above you Not so much at the farm, I don't know. Still there is, it's maybe more lateral but learn, you need to be listening, listening, listening learning from those around you and listening to your team too. Like I kind of alluded to earlier, there's a lot that can be learned, you know, from the people who work for you too, and so I think that is a big part of it to be a good follower and listener too, and so you can adapt. And that's another big piece of it too is adaptability and being able to really put your finger on the pulse of the organization and what's working and what's not.
Maria:So many people, I think, can be tone deaf. They're so focused on mission and so focused on an objective that they're not really in tune with what's happening with the team and why things may not be working in that direction. And maybe there's another way that we need to adapt. Maybe it's a training issue, maybe it's resources, but maybe we're not aligning properly with what our team's ability is to what we're trying to accomplish. So I think adaptability is also important. Yeah, and then, as I said before, mentors are so great too, at every level. I don't care who you are, I don't care if you're the leader of your organization. You still need mentors, and especially if you're going to be going into new, new areas, whether it's new cultures, new fields or, in my case, new sectors. You need to really have people who can be kind of those mentors to you and those advisors and, most importantly, as a leader, then you need to be willing to be a mentor and an advisor as well, because that's part of the deal right.
Sara :Yeah, it seems like what you're saying also is to be very much in receive mode a lot of the time Talked about listening, talked about mentoring, receiving the information of the team that you're leading and providing, just open to having that information.
Maria:and, yeah, especially in complex situations, and most of the situations are, I mean, um, there's a lot you can learn, um, as a leader. Listen, if you're in, if you're in a multi or intercultural kind of environment, boy, I really need to learn from the people who are from that culture. Right, I need to really understand that. I need to listen to that. But, it's true, even in an intergenerational kind of context too, right, like you know, I need to listen to the younger generation or the older generation or whoever it is that's in there. I need to kind of understand their perspectives too, because I can't be everything Right, I can't know everything, and this is how, this is how we learn and we can lead much better that way too. So, yeah, definitely I don't think there's enough listening. That goes on in general, but I think that's probably one of the most valuable attributes we can have as leaders.
Sara :Definitely, definitely. So, based on your story, which I again will say like seems like the coolest thing, makes no sense, but I think that is sometimes the best story of like how you get to where you are today and all of the journey so, as people are navigating, different journeys, whether it's a career journey or they decide to go out on an entrepreneurial journey. What advice would you give to those people?
Maria:Yeah, so you know if you're going to, if you're going to take a leap on anything, it's always it is a leap and you know, don't, don't be too afraid to do it and then never going to be in the case of entrepreneurial things. So there's never going to be the right time. You're never going to say, oh yeah, I'm 100% ready to do this right now. This is the time that will. If you're waiting for that day to happen, it will never come, I can assure you. You just need to kind of jump off and do it.
Maria:But I would say that you know, just understand, understand who you are and what's important to you and what your skills are. And don't limit yourself. Too many people, I think and I know a lot of military people say, well, gosh, I don't know, like, I'm not sure I have the skill sets to go and do something because you know I did such and such in the Air Force or maybe in a corporate environment or something. But don't limit yourself to maybe what, specifically, what specific thing you did, because you do have more broad skill sets that you're maybe not thinking about. Maybe it's working with people, maybe it's you know, a particular work ethic, it's organization, it's planning, it's whatever. Those are your real skill sets, you know, and those are transferable to just about anything that you might be interested in doing, and so don't cut yourself short on what you're capable of doing.
Maria:But then really also, I think a trap that a lot of people fall into is well, you know, I was a career public affairs officer, so I guess all I can really do is communications or something. Well, of course, you can do communications, and you're probably really good at it, and that's great, but that's not all that. You can do communications, and you're probably really good at it, and that's great, but that's not all that you can do. And don't feel that just because you're good at one thing, that that's the only thing you should do. There may be other things that you're well suited in and, more importantly, there may be other things that you would actually prefer to do at a different stage in your life. You know, I think that life is a journey, too right, and we constantly are adapting and evolving as individuals and as leaders too, but just as individuals, and there's different things that appeal to us at different points, and certainly that's the case for me.
Maria:I use all kinds of communication skills in my job every day, as you probably saw.
Maria:I mean, I feel like I give a little press briefing every single time I give a tour, but I also do I also do a lot of event uh planning and organizing and I'm constantly um, uh doing marketing and different things like that too, kind of at the small business level.
Maria:Um, certainly, but um, but I really I'm passionate about I, I I'm very passionate about sustainability and I love, I love agriculture, I love to create something that didn't exist before and I have found I love kind of organizing community and bringing community together, and so all of these kind of passions and interests of mine really kind of come together in what I'm doing now. So it's really the perfect thing for me at this point in my life. That being said, I loved my time in the Air Force, loved what I did, and so glad I had that as well. So I think it all comes together and you just have to be clear on who you are, what interests you, what you're good at, and then go out and find it, and if you can't find it, then you can create it.
Sara :I love that and I will definitely highlight this, because I feel like there's a few of me and my peers that are kind of going through this moment, and so it's one of those where it's like, yes, we want to feel inspired, but, you're right, there is no right time to do anything and, especially like the past five, six, seven years, it feels like the world's all over the place, and so yeah, and you know, that's the thing you know, where there is turbulence, there is opportunity too.
Maria:Right, that's? That's very much a truism, and I think that, yeah, you, just you have to be open to possibility too. You know, you just have to kind of again oh well, let's, we're going to buy some land. Okay, it's ag land. Well, should we grow something? Well, let's grow something. What should it be? Okay, it'll be this.
Maria:And then we could never have imagined, really, that it would have evolved into what it is now. I mean, now, not only are we, we actually just won the 2024 Craft Chocolate International Craft Chocolate competition last year. I mean, gosh, here's people we didn't even know. Yeah, thank you, but you know, so we're making kind of this world-class chocolate from world-class cacao, you know, in 10 years. But at the same time, we're doing all these really fun collaborations with different culinary people and just, yeah, we're doing all kinds of educational tours and we have so many interesting groups that come and different things.
Maria:And I think you just have to be open. The point is really just be open to different opportunities. And over the years, different opportunities have come our way and some we have done and some we haven't. Or we've done some and said, oh yeah, that was fun, but I don't think we want to keep doing it. So you know you evolve, but you got to be open to them and give them a try and assess them against your vision and your goals Right For to them. And give them a try and assess them against your vision and your goals right For the for whatever it is that you're doing and yeah, I think there's. Yeah, just be open to possibility for sure.
Sara :And so, speaking of being open to possibility, what is the future for 21 Degree Estate and what's your kind of vision?
Maria:Yeah, well, you know. So now that we've kind of matured into, you know, a steady agricultural operation and we have a pretty steady kind of agritourism business going as well, now we've been able to kind of settle back and say, ok, what's, what's next, what do we see as kind of his legacy? And there are a couple of things along those lines because, you know, at some point I'm guessing we're going to retire. I don't know, maybe we'll never retire. I think that's probably more likely because we're kind of just keep doing new things and that's fine, that's good, it keeps us going. But I think when we look forward there are a couple of areas.
Maria:One is we started a big we call it Malama Ka'aina, which in Hawaiian stands for Caring for the Land or Sustainability Project At the upper part of the property. It's mostly a forestry kind of project, but we started a microforest of koa trees, which is a type of tree that's native to Hawaii. It is very important to Hawaii and Hawaiians, but it's a Harvard legacy tree. I mean, this is going to. This forest is not for this generation, it's for my son's generation and the next generation, and that's important, it's important for Hawaii, it's also important just for legacy and sustainability, so that kind of falls into that category. But the other thing that we have really learned over the 10 years is that this farm yes, we grow cacao, yes, we make chocolate, yes, we do different events but it's this beautiful place and space and people come there and say, wow, I feel the mana in this place, and that's the Hawaiian word for kind of power from the earth, and there's a power in the beauty and the sustenance that land provides anywhere, of course, but here in Hawaii that's important.
Maria:And so what we've learned is that I think one of the reasons we have so many volunteers and people who come is that they love the power and the beauty of the place and the space and so we feel like we are the stewards of this special place and space and I think, looking forward, I want to do more with this aspect of it and create kind of a wellness center. We do a lot of wellness events anyway, where we do kind of the goat yoga, but we do wellness workshops and things that are related to being in nature and the importance of, you know, blue zones and all these different things where it's important to volunteer, it's important to be in nature, to create, to give back, to be reciprocal with the land and I think that's probably the area that I want to go into more as we go forward a place and space where people come and develop all of those things. So, yeah, I'm excited about that prospect and we're working with a lot of great, amazing humans who, I think, want to contribute and be part of that.
Sara :So, yeah, and I can totally see that from visiting the farm, because there you do feel like a power of some sort, like I. It was also a sense of peace too, when it was just there's a lot of nature and a lot of different things that I don't know if it's just because I'm used to being in the city, which probably is, uh, but just seeing what's possible, um, was also something that really was inspiring and, uh, I, I do again, I wish I wasn't so far away because I'd love to help out and it was really great tour, um, and also I brought the chocolate back and and a bunch of my friends had it, and they have said that it's the best chocolate I've ever had it was.
Sara :I think it was the one that had the hibiscus in it, or there was like oh the elderflower, I bet the elderflower yeah. Nice, yep, yep. And they were like what is this? And it was gone.
Maria:Yeah, well, I love to hear that, and on our tours, you know, we get a lot of people who say, hey, just to let you know, I was not a dark chocolate fan before, but now I am, because there's no bitterness to this and so we love to hear that. I mean, I'm in that category. I mean, gosh, here I am the cacao farmer now. But I will say and you know what I've almost forgotten here I am just chatting away on all these topics. The other big thing that we're working on now is actually we've started a new line called Latitude 21. And it's using plants from the farm, plant-based kind of beauty products like skin oils and different things, and based on a lot of the Hawaiian kind, of the old Hawaiian recipes and things too, which is really exciting, and so that's another thing that we're going to in the future. But again, that really ties in kind of with this wellness piece that we're talking about, right to wellness and beauty and healing and all of these things too. So, yeah, so excited about that as well.
Sara :Well, you're also embracing the culture of where you're at, embracing what all of that kind of brings to the table, and I mean speaking more to that openness that you had like. Just embracing the culture and yeah, absolutely, yeah, yeah. Where can our listeners find out more information?
Maria:Oh well, if anyone's coming to Oahu, you've got to come visit us. We're on the windward side, but we have a website, 21degreesofstatecom, and we're on social as well, and so, yeah, come check us out. And if you do come here, you know you could book a tour or just come by. We always have the farm store available so you can always come and check out the chocolate and honey and look around.
Sara :And it really is some of the best chocolate I've ever had, so highly recommend. And then, just to kind of close out the conversation, just asking for one final leadership insight. And if you could leave our listeners with one leadership principle that's guided you, what would it be?
Maria:I would say again be a visionary for the team, set the vision.
Sara :I love that. Thank you so much for coming on the show. I really appreciate it. I hope that everyone goes to visit your farm in Hawaii and I wish you all the best at the farm with the future with all the animals.
Sara :Thank you so much, sarah, great talking with you today. Thanks for listening to another episode of Lead Into it. If you enjoyed this episode, it would mean a lot to me if you would leave a review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify to help future listeners. If you want to learn more about the podcast or me, go to leadintoitco. That's leadintoitco. Thanks again.
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