Lead Into It
Lead Into It is your go-to podcast for real, actionable leadership insights—no title required. Whether you're leading a team, a project, or just yourself, host Sara Greco brings you powerful conversations with leaders from corporate, nonprofit, hospitality, the U.S. military, and beyond. Each episode delivers tactical tools, fresh perspectives, and lasting inspiration to help you lead with confidence in your career and life.
Because leadership isn’t about a title—it’s about action.
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52. No Clichés, Just Courage with Mike Minihan (Part 2 of 2)
What does real leadership look like when no one’s watching? In this episode, retired General Mike Minahan gets honest about the messy, meaningful, and deeply human side of command.
He shares the story behind his now-viral decision to schedule a mental health appointment as a four-star general—something he thought was just leading by example but turned out to be life-changing for himself and countless others. Years later, he’s still hearing from people who were inspired to finally ask for help.
We also talk about the role family played in shaping his leadership style, what it really takes to lead through resistance and uncertainty, and why his go-to leadership advice is as simple as it is profound: “Don’t suck.”
This conversation is a reminder that leadership isn’t about performance—it’s about showing up, especially when it’s hard. Whether you're leading a team, a mission, or just trying to lead your life with more intention, there’s something here for you.
Let’s keep the conversation going—connect with me on Instagram and LinkedIn, subscribe to my Sunday newsletter, or reach out at sara@leadintoitco.
Excited to be back with you!
You're listening to episode 52 of the Lead Into it podcast. Welcome back to Lead Into it. I'm your host, sarah Greco, and today we're diving into part two of my conversation with retired General Mike Minahan, former commander of Air Mobility Command. In part one, we explored his leadership philosophy and his early career experiences. We talked about striving for excellence, owning the outcome and leading with attitude, but in this episode we go a little deeper. In part two, general Minahan opens up about the personal side of leadership, starting with his own mental health journey. He shares why, as a four-star general, he made a public therapy appointment and how that moment became a turning point in helping reduce the stigma around mental health in the military. We talk about the leadership of legacy passed down from his father and how the lessons he learned growing up shaped not only his approach to command but to fatherhood, family and what it really means to care for your people. We also explore what happens behind the scenes in leadership the gray areas, the human moments, the times that leaders must show up with consistency, humility and courage, even when it's hard, whether you're in a formal leadership role or simply leading your own life with intention. This conversation is a reminder that leadership isn't about perfection, it's about presence, purpose and people.
Speaker 1:Let's jump into part two Now. I'd love to go into kind of your heritage a little bit and I mentioned to my dad that I was talking to General Mike Minahan. He goes oh my gosh, I worked for Ken Minahan, he was great, and he went on and on and let me tell you he is so jealous I'm doing this interview because all he wants to do is talk to you. It was hard to keep him out of this room and it was interesting to hear his perspective as kind of a legacy when it comes to Air Force, especially both of us being in the Air Force in the levels that we're at.
Speaker 1:Also hearing how you have a family legacy in that manner as well. You have a family legacy in that manner as well. And, um, from what I could see online, your dad went up to NSA two-star general. Um, awesome, awesome career and people like my dad in the Intel community really admired his type of leadership and what he brought to the table and how he led teams and grew the in the Intel community. Um, can you speak to how that kind of molded you as a kid to want to join the Air Force and as a leader?
Speaker 2:Yes, he's awesome, he's still awesome. He lives two blocks from me, which we talked about in the warm-up, which is a treat for me to be so close.
Speaker 2:You know I grew up loved. I've got a younger brother two years younger than me. I got a younger sister seven years younger me. We grew up love and it's not a but, and with incredibly high, tough standards. You know we worked, we were held accountable, we were loved aggressively. Uh, there were no shortcuts to hard work. There were no shortcuts to discipline. There was never a pass on going back on your word. If you said it, it was done. Um, so I could not be more grateful for what he did for me and did for my kids too, as I'm the pastor. That's just dad Ken Minahan.
Speaker 2:What I saw him as husband with my mom just great, great team with lots of communication, making tough decisions, being normal. I think people think that when you're generals that you get a pass on the normal life issues. You don't. I didn't live in the house when my dad was a general. The majority of my time was Lieutenant Minahan, captain Minahan, major Minahan, lieutenant Colonel Ken Minahan, not Colonel and General Minahan. You know we ground through all the things, just like every other family does. We ground through grandparents' passings. We ground through not having the money to do certain things. We ground through vacations that went well and others that didn't. We did all the normal stuff, you know, and to watch them as a team lead us was really awesome. So that's husband and dad command. And then there's this creature, you know, that eventually became the director of the National Security Agency and you know I watched my dad.
Speaker 2:You know, which I think is the most important thing is be genuine, you know. Have a genuine care for the people around you, take the time to listen, make, when they have an audience with you, that you are completely focused on them. You know it's all about mission and people and there's really no separation of the two, you know. I know there's all the ACSE and SOS. Hey man, it's mission and people All right.
Speaker 2:And so I just think this you know watching him, watching how people treated this. You know watching him watching how people treated him. You know, when we ran into a family at the BX, watch how he treated people. When we ran into a family, watch the human interactions, the normal. Are you approachable? Do you put on airs? Are you genuine? Do you have the time?
Speaker 2:Even when you don't have the time, all those things I soaked up like a sponge and then you know, I think the you know, probably you know what people don't see is that. How do you, how do you handle when you don't do it right? How do you handle when, when things aren't optimal, how do you handle the times that are incredibly tough? I mean, that's really where you know the magnificence of what my dad presents is, you know, not losing his cool, always keeping his patience, always taking the time to explain it, taking on responsibility when even maybe it wasn't his fault, you know, so that he could create the conditions to move forward both as an organization as in individuals underneath, but still maintain the high standards and accountability and all that.
Speaker 2:You know all those are things that my dad, I think, really showed me how to do. And then watching now you know as the, you know the two old dudes you know sitting in the VF. You know the, the VA waiting room, you know, even to watch how interaction, like just the story that your dad is so great, I mean what a, what a, what a precious gift by you relaying that you know which something I'll relate to him tonight. You know, seeing that that comes around and is sustained, I mean, is really cool too.
Speaker 2:So you know I've said this at every change of command, I've said this at every promotion my parents are my heroes. I'm surrounded by amazing family, including the one that's on the other side of this door right now, and you know that's what matters. You know I have a brief that I used to give where I had my tombstone, michael A Minahan, 1967 to X. Hopefully it's a long ways away, but you know I want to be graded as an A, as a dad and a husband. Okay, you know you guys determine what my grade is as an airman, but that standard was set by my, my pops, and, and it's cool to be around them and be close with them now. So I think I answered your question.
Speaker 1:You did, you did and I. When it comes to, I think there's a legacy of leadership that is kind of leads back to what we're talking about when it comes to responsibility and worthiness is, if you're a great leader, you will be remembered decades down the road and you have an impact on people's lives that you don't even realize you have until you might never know, and that is the worthiness and the responsibility of being a leader.
Speaker 2:It's a great way. A little bit of a nuance, I would say. You know, I think that the best leaders care about their unit's legacy and not their own legacy. Yes, and you know, that gift of feedback is so cool. It's so cool when it happens, you know. I'll give you an example.
Speaker 2:I've shared this before, but it's a when I was the wing commander at the 89th, there was a suicide on the in the other wing and there was a memorial service on the flight line and I went up to the commander of the squadron after the service and I and this isn't a story about me, but I just said hey brother, keep the faith. Man, you have got to keep. You know. I don't really remember what I said, but it probably wasn't more than two minutes of. You know. You know a classic minute hand hug and a. You know, you know, keep the faith, I'm here for you, type of thing.
Speaker 2:10 years later I have the email. 10 years later, I get an email from him. Sir, you won't remember me, but 10 years ago you took me aside on a flight line and you said the following things and I was in a really dark place. And here I am today, a Colonel Select and I just wanted to say thank you. So, so, wow, how powerful is that man but that? But the point is not Mike Minahan, the point is you are making positive impacts every day that you never get feedback on, you know. So it's easy to focus on the things that aren't going right. It's emotional, it's scary, it's painful. It's underlined in bold italics red.
Speaker 2:It's all things, but your victories are happening all the time and you got to. That's what. When I say keep the faith, that's what I'm saying Keep the faith, man. Keep the faith that the positives are out there happening, because you may may never get the feedback on it, you know, but the feedback on the opposite is always there. Even though it's the minority of what's happening, the feedback is always. The negative feedback is always, especially in today's day and age with all the social media stuff.
Speaker 1:Well, and for that the minority isn't highlighted. The minority of the positives are the things that actually aren't highlighted but might actually be the bigger things. It's the majority of the negatives and the there, and it's not good for anybody when that happens.
Speaker 2:But this speaks to this command thing too. You can't be scared of what social media is going to say for you. I mean, this gets to the, you know you got to lead.
Speaker 2:You got to. You know the four W's coming off a little bit here. Four W's you got to will things into existence. Okay, I mean, that's how hard it is. Nobody Okay, I mean, that's how hard it is, nobody ever says that's a great idea. I'm going to help you All right, here's the money. I've never been in a unit that had enough money, enough time, enough people. But for the big change you got to will it to existence. You just got to wake up one day and said damn it, this is going to be in two years, in a year and a half, in two weeks, whatever the time frame is. You got to wither the internal resistance and you got to weather the personal and professional attacks and if you can do those three W's then you can win.
Speaker 2:But each one of those takes courage. How do you know you're right? So I thought about this with my memo. You know this is part of what was relieved off of me three days into it. But, um, I thought I'm not comparing myself to a Billy Mitchell, or you know, when he was being court-martialed, did he sit in his room going? Am I right? Is this worth it? And I think the answer is yes.
Speaker 2:So those four w's really matter because all those require courage, you know, and courage is something that needs to be generated. Okay, confidence is a piece of it. The team that the family, and teams that surround you, the people that pick up the phone and say I'm thinking about you, man, you're right, keep the faith, keep moving. Um, you know, all those things matter, so you can receive that, but you can also give it. Your dad gave my dad a gift. With his comment, the Colonel Select that sent me that email gave me a gift, a gift. So take advantage of those very infrequent times when you get the gift and have it, build your confidence and your courage and then give those intentionally. Give those to others who need it, intentionally. Give those to others who need it.
Speaker 1:And I think a lot of what we're talking about is in the Air Force. We've used a lot resilience, resilience and all the things, and I think there's a kind of negative connotation on it just because it's been used so much. But I do, I'm grateful to see that the air force has embraced a lot of mental health tendencies, especially in the past I would say three to five years, Um, and I think that you actually had a lot to contribute to it, because you did something early on in your AMC career that I think showcased how even high level leadership needs to take care of themselves when it comes to mental health. Can you describe a little bit of what that was and why you decided to do it that way?
Speaker 2:Certainly, certainly, I had this ability to make myself make my life incredibly dramatic in January of 22 and 23. So the first rally that we did rallies my commander's call with my wing commanders. The first rally we did we had a panel of everybody that had executed the evacuation out of Kabul. So there was everything from fly fix support to spouses on the panel and it was apparent to me very clearly that there was an enormous impact of that mission that we had to take on and deal with Right. So I had some pros that I hired to come into the command One's name's Chief, anthony Brinkley, a retired command chief that I'm fortunate enough to know for decades, and then Dr Janelle McCauley, and they were kind of providing some expert level. In the room had all the wing commanders, and so we're talking about hey, what do we do? How do we know? Not a big barrier to get out of resiliency. I don't like the, I don't mind the word resiliency but I try not to use it. I think you're right about the connotations there. But Chief Brinkley said this he goes, minahan, if you think it's so important, make a mental health appointment and put it on your calendar. So you know, I came away from that going all right, chief, you know, and it took me a while to get over it, you know. So that was in November, you know thought about it all. December came into early January, put the mental health appointment on my calendar and I realized only four people could see my calendar. So I went down to the awesome PA team and I said tweet it. And you know that started in, you know. You know I talked about the other three days. This was like you know. I know you don't think this, but I am shy in social media and all the things, especially back then I wasn't beat up like I was and I, you know it was. It was insane, the amount, you know. I don't know if you'd call it viral, but it just it exploded big.
Speaker 2:You know, I went to the appointment. It actually went out before I went to the appointment. I went, you know they tried to give me a special parking place, bring me in the back of the hospital, all that things. I parked in the front, I went to the front door, I went to that elevator, I walked to the part of the hospital that nobody likes to go to. I sat in the waiting room with my name tag and uniform on and you know, I did the computer uptake, I did the verbal uptake, I did all the things and then what I found out is when I got to the back. I just had a conversation and the way I describe it is what I thought I was doing for my airman I wound up doing for me.
Speaker 2:Okay, I thought this was just a demonstration through example, but it turns out that when you've had some of the experiences that I've had in the Pentagon on 9-11, some of the missions that I've had to do that involved fatalities, casualties, things like that, some of the responsibilities that I've had, that there are some things that we need to work through. When you're talking to a pilot with PTSD okay, I didn't mean to get it. I'm also the strongest person I know. And then I also know that I have sat on, I've stood on a stage for decades saying it's a sign of strength, not a sign of weakness, to seek help. But I could not possibly know what that means until I took that walk myself and did that. I had no idea what it means to generate that courage and go for it, nor did I understand the positive impact with just a conversation that it could leave so soon after. So all that collision of everything I'm telling you right now is it's important that we set the environment so that we can eliminate stigma, lower barriers and increase access and options. That's what that did for me.
Speaker 2:It turns out that what I was doing for airmen, I was also doing for me. Okay, I can be the strong I'm not saying strongest person I know in an arrogant way, but I'm just telling you, bring it. Okay, I'll, I will work my butt off and I will keep going, and keep going, and keep going, and keep going, and you know whether it's easy or hard is insignificant, but I'm going to do, I'm going to work my tail off till I physically and mentally can't do that, and I've not reached that barrier yet. Ok, and I'm not saying that to be hierarchical. However, that word is against other people, so please don't take this as an arrogant statement, but I'm just telling you that, if that you can also be someone like me who thinks that of himself, and benefit from that awesome chat and journey, ok, the hardest thing you can do awesome chat and journey Okay, the hardest thing you can do is take the journey by yourself. So anybody out there that's thinking about it is already doing the hardest thing possible already.
Speaker 2:So all we've done here eliminate stigma, lower barriers, increase access and options, mind-body, craft on the same level, three pillars of you, all equal, not one subservient to the others. But we always do body and craft no big deal. Go to the doctor, go to the gym, go to training, all that things, but we rarely think about the mind part. So that's all it is is bringing that all together, and so let me end with this Above everything I've done, I still get the most feedback from that.
Speaker 2:Okay, everything from I'll give you. Let me see if I can come up with. I'll come up with three stories. The first story is I got an email from a master sergeant I used to work with, who is then a chief, who said who sent me just a note and said sir, I'm glad you did this. This is something I've needed to do for 20 years that you finally gave me the courage to do.
Speaker 2:Data point one. Data point two I'm at Hickam Air Force Base being driven to my lodging, and I walked around to get my bag out of the back and the driver with a mask on, a civilian driver, said hey, sir, and I looked over and he goes that tweet was awesome. It's exactly what I needed. Okay, data point three I'm in lows, lows and I'm mooching for my 10% discount, so I've got, like I don't know, 86 cents of bolts that I'm buying. I throw down my ID card and she looks at it civilian obviously and she goes hey, you're that guy that did that tweet. If someone had created that environment while I was in, I'd still be in. So again, this isn't about me. This is about leaders setting the environment and just making it appropriate for people to do all that. It's a very delicate human issue. There is nothing harder on the planet than this, and we can do it and be strong warriors and also take care of the mind, just like we take care of the body and craft. Did I answer your question?
Speaker 1:Yes, you answered it. Plus, and I love the background of the story A few things that stick out to me is first, I love that the conversation with Chief happened in November and the appointment happened in January, because I think it's important to recognize that time that you decided to think about it and that it's okay to take that time to think about it, because sometimes you need that time in order to take that step. And I commend you for deciding to showcase that and highlight it. And it's amazing because I remember this tweet going out and thinking this is the shortest tweet ever because of public affairs, and I remember the AMCPA team drafting it up and they were going back and forth on how they were like working on it and it was there, went with the shortest phrase and made sure it was approved and all that.
Speaker 1:So it was interesting to see how I knew it was happening at AMC and I was at a different unit, I think in Charleston, when all this happened and it was perfect timing for the unit on the ground to see it and for them to understand that if a highest level general in our unit, amc, is saying that this is okay, why can't we To the point where the mental health office was getting inundated, as far as I understand, with calls to the point where they ran out of appointments because everyone felt okay for them to do it. And so there's a huge impact that a short tweet can have, and I think your littlest moments, or what might seem like your littlest moments, have maybe the biggest impact as leaders.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, you know, you just ignited a thought. It's the, it's the courage piece, Right? So I'm, you know I'm not, I'm not saying I'm courageous, OK, but I do need to generate courage and you know I've never. It's really insightful that you brought up that gap. I mean, you know, sometimes courage needs to be generated very quickly, Sometimes courage needs to be generated with others and sometimes courage just needs to be generated within, and you maybe have some more time. So I'm going to process that tonight as I think about it.
Speaker 2:But I think it's a powerful comment, but I don't know the right answer and the perfect answer. I don't know it. I don't know what to say when I walk into the room or the house of a spouse whose husband was just killed in my port. I don't know what to say, I don't know the perfect thing, but I'm going to walk in there and I'm going to do my best and I'm going to be me and genuine and I'm not going to have an agenda except for to comfort, do the best I can to comfort her. Now I don't know what to say to parents who come to a base for a memorial service for their son or daughter. I don't know the perfect tweet to try to get out of the suicide rates that we're in. I don't know the perfect anything.
Speaker 2:And so you know, the generation of courage to just step into the situation, be genuine, be real, be there. Be there, man, it's easy to tap out and say someone else do it. It's easy to say, well, I'm not going to walk in the door right now, I'm going to wait for her to settle down. I mean, you know it's that those are easy things that require no courage. The hard things are to go into the most intense human situations that exist in our lives. Do your best, do your best and guess what? If you mess it up, then apologize and try better, you know, and debrief and get to a better one the next time. So you know, humans aren't perfect.
Speaker 2:We talked about that already. Your highest highs and your lowest lows will all be about human things, and so I think it's important that we do this. But we also talk about these things. You know this is what squadron commander courses need to chat about. You know, think about this. The squadron commander course in AMC while I was there, is the most important course we teach. Most important course, I mean the squadron, and we developed it strong right. I committed myself and my schedule to it. The team that put it on, from the CAG to the staff, was phenomenal. We aggressively went after things in a different way. We made sure all the spouses that could get there could get there. We included the command team. So the first sergeants and the superintendents I mean really grew it in a pretty good place.
Speaker 2:But one of the things they have to do before they get to Scott is they had to give me their command philosophy and you get everything from a regurgitated SOS paper, ACSC paper to the most awesome PowerPoint slides you've ever seen, all the way to a couple of handwritten sentences, and I'm good with all that. You know a couple of handwritten sentences and I'm good with all that. But but my point to them is nobody you lead cares about your command philosophy. They don't. They don't care about this binder of stuff you gave me.
Speaker 2:What they care about is how you put it into action. What they care about is how consistent you are with it. What they care about is how you do it when you're tired. What they care about is how you do it when you're pissed. What they care about it is how you do it when you're maybe you're feeling your oats a little bit and you're a little arrogant. What they care about is how you react when maybe another squad or another unit is doing better or worse. What they care about is where you're at when their grandfather dies, their grandmother dies. What they care about is what can they make their? You know? So it's. This collision of humanness is where this command philosophy needs to meet the reality of being human.
Speaker 2:And so you know. You can't replicate that in a you know a classroom for a week. You can't replicate that, even a classroom for a week. You can't replicate that even when you're a DO or a vice wing commander. I've been a vice wing commander for a year.
Speaker 2:I was the deputy commander at PACOM for two years and as much experience as I have being a deputy, I have no idea what it feels like to be the commander. I don't feel the weight, I don't feel the tension. I'm not in the room when the boss is mad and yelling at him or happy and congratulating him. So this weight of command and weight of supervision is a real thing and the only way you can know it is to have it, you know. But so all that to say what we can do in these instructions, in this classroom and coaching and other things out there is. We can talk about these things and prepare you and the future leaders for that, because these are, you know, to me these are the essence of what makes a good commander or good command teams and what makes ones that aren't as good.
Speaker 1:And it's so funny that you brought up not being perfect. Humans aren't perfect, because that's actually what I was going to say earlier, but it's such an important point to bring up and I like that. I love your perspective on being a commander because you're correct, until you're in a commander role and I've never been in a commander role, so I don't even know you don't understand what it takes to do that and you are human in yourself, but everyone around you is also human and that's what you were kind of talking about. Is that interjection of all the human.
Speaker 1:So how does your human perspective interact with your airman's human perspective? Does it clash? Does it kind of go together? Does it mesh? And a lot of times it won't. Sometimes it will and then it's magic, but you don't really pay attention to that it's. You pay attention to the times when it doesn't. The human, the human imperfection, when it doesn't go well. That's what you focus on and that's when the hardest parts happen in leadership and command and in all of those different things. And if you understand if you it sounds like what you're saying is if you ground yourself in your command philosophy, then you understand how to kind of build yourself and your leadership skills to be okay when you have your human moments, which is fine to have those moments.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think you're. You're right. I mean, you know, with experience you gain, you know, you gain a, you know, a broader toolkit if you will, you know, and what you can rely on to shape how you go in. You know, and you know. The other thing is you can't overthink it, you know. You know I learned a lot as a wing commander doing discipline issues Right, discipline issues right, and I was lucky enough as a squadron commander of someone who led me through that. But it's the.
Speaker 2:When people are receiving discipline, you know the emotions are very high, you know, and so someone might laugh that's getting in trouble and the easy response would be what the F is so funny? You know where it might actually be. Their brain is so overloaded at the point that you know that there's just things. So you know that's probably a pretty crude example, but you know, but it speaks to the. You know the imperfection of what's going on is. And then you know you gradually get enough experience and enough reps where you can kind of have a pretty good idea of how you want to go in and what the outcomes might be, and you also might be completely caught by surprise, but at least you're prepared to be caught by surprise and that gives you a skill set that a lot of people don't have, and the only way to get it is to get it. I mean, that's part of the deal. So you know, as wing commander Minahan, you know to take in that staff around you, around you and the people that might be you someday, and to say, hey, listen, let me just tell you how that went and how it could have gone better, and have people come along with you so that they can watch and see before they have to do. Those are part of what I would call the phenomenal supervision in commanders.
Speaker 2:Are you trying to grow? The next you, or the better you is a better way to say it. Right, are you? What are you doing beyond the normal stuff, beyond the awards index, beyond the recognition, beyond the OPRs, eprs or whatever we call them now, beyond you know, the normal stuff? Are you taking the time to to develop somebody that wants to be you? Not inappropriately, not too early, but it's like you know. Are you? Are you? Are you bringing them in and giving them a peek behind the curtain? How'd you think that went? It went great. Well, I don't think it went great.
Speaker 2:Let me tell you why that one really caught me off guard or this one you know this one was, you know could have been really good, I don't know, but do you go out of your way to to coach the people that come in behind you know the? Uh? I think coaching is a word we need to use more than mentor. Um will to win. Better at handling bad is what we need to use instead of resilience. Those things matter and intentionally doing that even when you're super busy, especially when you're in the command level, are incredibly important.
Speaker 1:The earlier that you can bring people into behind-the-curtain kind of scenes and full understanding. It gives them a perspective that they probably wouldn't know either. So, even if it's, it's just nice to have that perspective, because they it's always behind the door, right, something like that's always behind a door and they're like well, what's happened? That must've been awful. They came out crying, they came out super mad, but maybe what you saw was just actually, we're just holding you accountable for something that you should have done and you're upset about you making a mistake. So bringing people behind that gives them a perspective of okay, this is what accountability looks like, feedback looks like, and then the expectation is different in a different manner, as a leader and as the person who's being supervised too, because you want to be held accountable in your job and making sure that you're doing it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, that's good. Did you ever sit in one of the squadron commander courses?
Speaker 1:I haven't.
Speaker 2:Okay, there's a slide. I mean it's me, so it's not going to be there anymore. But my favorite block was I got an hour block on decisions that I had to make as a commander and there was everything from people to flying to discipline issues and stuff. But but the beauty of those stories is there's no right or wrong answer. I mean, you know and this way I describe it you know, nobody gets paid to stop on a red light and go on a green light. My dog can do that. Nobody gets paid to go on green and stop on red. We get paid to negotiate yellow lights as commanders and supervisors. You know, very rarely is the issue so clear that it's just a yes or a no.
Speaker 2:It's normally a yes, it depends, or a no, it depends. And so this yellow light, you know, has a lot of you know it's a horrific analogy, I get you know. Did you see it turn yellow from green and therefore you have an idea of how much time you got to get through the intersection? Or were you changing the radio, come up and it's yellow and you have no idea whether it's about to hit red or whether you got three or four more seconds. You know. So these, you know this ability to operate in the gray, this ability to operate in the gray, the ability to understand the intent of the regs but then apply them and with the context needed, to move the unit and the individual forward. This is the essence of command. I mean, there are still decisions I made as a squadron commander or wing commander where I go back. I mean you could easily see it from the other direction. And so the ones that I put in the class are pretty, you know, are pretty good, because we take votes and we have discussions and the spouses are always great. But the intent is not for them to say, if that comes up, I'll do it like Minahan did. That's not it. The intent is, again. You know this is creating the environment where you can have the right conversation that guides you to the right decision, and not just apply a yes or no and move on.
Speaker 2:There's a book and this is part of the portfolio in the command course too it's called Mint Under Stress. It was written in 1945 by the flight surgeon of the Air Force that did a survey of all flying units and they just wanted to answer one question what made a unit combat effective? And the answer is the commander. And so I would broaden it, I would use more modern terms the command team. I would open it up, moving forward. But commanders that established an environment where nobody wanted to let each other down, those were successful Over ones that were scared of the boss. Squadrons that had commanders that emphasized what is important were ones that were successful in combat. Squadrons that had commanders that de-emphasized the BS were successful in combat.
Speaker 2:So the command teams really have a lot of power here. So I realize we're talking specifically now to a younger group of commanders, right, but can you make the main thing the main thing? Can you worry about what really matters? And if you can, you know you can create an environment where they don't want to let each other down or let the unit down, honor the patch that's on the left sleeve, then you know these are the things you know that really go into the genuine style, the UBU, all that other stuff. You know that I think that can make our team successful, but we don't talk about that stuff at ACSC and SOS and the normal coaching and mentoring and stuff like that.
Speaker 1:That's where we need to go.
Speaker 1:And it's true because there's just I feel like there's so much we could talk about when it comes to items like this, but it's just realizing the impact that a commander has. I think that, ultimately, that's what it lies down to the risk that you have to take, understanding the responsibility that a commander has and what you need to do, the decisions that you have to make on a day-to-day basis that could impact person A, person B, mission A, mission B. There's a lot of responsibility when it comes to taking on a role like that, and don't take it lightly, but also realize you're not alone.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. So I'm reading. I just read. You're going to think I'm a dork. I just read the memoirs of Ulysses S Grant and I've got about another day and I'll be done with the memoirs of William Tecumseh Sherman.
Speaker 2:My goodness, those two memoirs are phenomenal. I mean, first of all, they speak volumes to air mobility command and the mission and logistics and all that stuff. I mean it's really good on that stuff too. But you're talking to two generals that were putting thousands and thousands of lives on the field, you know routinely, with horrific losses. And you know these two.
Speaker 2:I mean I never knew this till these memoirs, but you know these were soldier soldiers. You know these were sleep on the ground with the troops guys. These were move forward to the front ends of the battlefield soldiers. These were understand, did I make a march very quickly? Do I have time to rest them? You know these were so in tuned with the average soldier. You know that. That you know this gets back to our talk on credibility and worthiness and stuff like that. I mean it's really and they're. I mean these memoirs are written by them, thus the name, clearly. But you know so it's all the old-timey language but it's so relevant for everything we've talked about today. It's so relevant. Why? Because they were in with it. They were fully in on the mission. They were fully in for their soldiers and their welfare. They understood all that stuff and that's why they were successful, unlike a lot of the Civil War. General leadership.
Speaker 2:But, what I'm telling you when you read this and I'm not giving you homework assignment. They're really, really enlightening and I really think enlightening in a modern context. I'll brag about it here on LinkedIn in a few weeks when I finish the other one, but I would make this mandatory reading. I would put this on my reading list if I was still had a reading list that people cared about, but it's it's not about what it gets after everything we're talking about and and to hear about the commanders that they, that they appointed, to hear about who they relieved from command and why, you know, really pertinent to the discussion that we're having today.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and it's all. It seems like it all goes back to lean into the main thing. What's the main thing as the mission? And the people. So the job that you need to do and the people that you need to take care of, and all of these things that we keep talking about, the decisions I have to make, mental health, the leadership legacy all the things are leading back to the job and the people. I can't tell you how much I appreciate your conversation and everything that we talked about today. I can't wait for people to listen. I'd love to close with one more question, and that is if you could leave any piece of advice for the audience today. What would that be?
Speaker 2:Okay, well, I got to go to my go-to. Is that? Okay, that's perfect. Okay, don't suck. That's it. You know it's flippant. I get that, you know. Decide not to suck. You know, be the commander you always wanted, be the supervisor. You two commanders before me, and that placard was still under the commander's message. It said message from the commander don't suck.
Speaker 2:It is wonderfully simple and pure and so accurate Make a decision that, no matter what, that your mission and your airmen are going to succeed, okay. And then do all the hard work and the pushups and the things necessary to make it come true. Do all the hard work, the pushups and the things necessary to make them successful. Do that. Be bothered by that. You know, be bothered by that. And you know I, I realize it's a little bit flippant. You know, be bothered by that. And you know I realize it's a little bit flippant. You know I'm going to write a book and I would say this publicly. Now I got to actually do it and the title is going to be Don't Suck. I mean that, you know.
Speaker 1:I look forward to the book.
Speaker 2:Well, I don't know Now. I know Now I got to actually do it, but I don't know if anyone will want to read it. But the point is it's that powerful to me and that was a rallying phrase for us. But you know, and it's not meant to be taken flippantly, it's meant to say you know, really do this is important business. Really read the oath that you took, whether you're officer enlisted. If you're enlisted, read the NCO creed and the senior NCO creed and the chief's creed and then really really grade yourself. If you're doing that, you know, when you think about all the responsibilities of a commander, you know, really think about and be bothered by those things, and a supervisor and a first sergeant and a superintendent, all the things you know, I, I really do, uh, say it's that simple. So I, I, I apologize for the crudeness of it, but I don't apologize for, uh, for anything else about it. It's, it's an amazing two word phrase that you should make the decision to be awesome with.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I mean, if you think about it, you don't want your leader to suck. And I mean, if you think about it, you don't want your leader to suck, so why would you be okay with not being awesome? Yep, I appreciate your time today and I'm sure the audience is going to learn lots from today's episode. It was just really great chatting with you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, I'm here for you and your audience always. So you know I'm on LinkedIn. Send me a note.
Speaker 1:And I'll put all these links. I'll put links to the books and the LinkedIn and any other information that we might have talked about in today's episode. I'll put it in the show notes and thank you all again for listening in. Thanks for listening to another episode of Lead Into it. If you enjoyed this episode, it would mean a lot to me If you would leave a review on Apple podcast or Spotify to help future listeners. If you want to learn more about the podcast or me, go to lead into itco. That's lead into itco. Thanks again.
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