80. Rewind Episode | Stop Apologizing at Work: How to Speak with Confidence & Executive Presence with Marisa Santoro

Some conversations are worth listening to more than once.

This is one of them.

In this rewind episode, I'm joined by leadership coach and former Wall Street tech executive Marisa Santoro to talk about something so many of us do without even realizing it: apologizing for taking up space.

Whether it's saying "I'm sorry" when you don't need to, hiding behind words like just, or softening your ideas before you've even shared them, these small habits can quietly chip away at your confidence and credibility.

Marisa shares practical tools to help you communicate with more intention, own your voice, and lead with confidence without pretending to be someone you're not.

If you've ever left a meeting wishing you'd spoken up, struggled to be heard, or wondered how to project more confidence at work, this episode is for you.

In this episode, we discuss:

• Marisa's journey from a 20-year Wall Street tech career to becoming a leadership coach
• What the Gutsy Leadership System is and why leadership starts with trusting yourself
• Why fear, self-doubt, and the desire to be liked often hold leaders back
• What it really means to "speak without apology"
• How words like "just," "but," and unnecessary apologies can weaken your message
• The simple question that can completely change how you communicate: "How do I want to be perceived?"
• The Rule of Three and how it helps you communicate with more clarity and impact
• Practical ways to build executive presence in meetings, presentations, and everyday conversations
• How to adapt your communication for different audiences without losing your authenticity
• Why confidence isn't about being the loudest person in the room—it's about being intentional

Guest:
Marisa Santoro is a former tech executive turned leadership coach and founder of In Our Shoes, where she teaches the Gutsy Leadership System. She's also known for her talk "Speaking Without Apology," which started as a program for NYU and later became a TEDx talk.

Let’s keep the conversation going—connect with me on Instagram and LinkedIn, subscribe to my weekly newsletter, or reach out at hello@leadintoit.co. 

Excited to be with you!

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:00

You're listening to episode 80 of the Lead Into It Podcast. Welcome back to Lead Into It. I'm your host, Sarah Greco, and today we have another rewind episode for you. But before we jump into the episode, I just want to share why I'm bringing this one back. So, this is a conversation I had with Martha Santoro, who is a former tech executive turned leadership coach back in 2020. And it's all about communicating with intention. She talks about her Gutsu leadership system, and we go into the idea to call speaking without apology. And I'm not kidding when I say this is probably the conversation that got me to stop apologizing in my emails and in conversations throughout the day at work. If you've caught yourself typing like I have, I just wanted to check in or apologizing for something that wasn't really even your fault, this one's for you. Marissa breaks down exactly why we dilute our value without even realizing it. And so she gives practical, real language swaps for you to use today. And we get into this idea of asking yourself one question before every conversation, every email, and every meeting. How do I want to be perceived? It sounds simple, but it really does change everything. So I'm bringing this episode back because the tools that she shares are timeless and I still use them today. So let's get into it. Here's my conversation with Marissa. Well, thanks, Marissa, for coming on the show today. It's awesome to have you on.

SPEAKER_00 1:17

Thank you. Thank you. I'm so excited to be here, Sarah.

SPEAKER_03 1:20

I'm so happy that you reached out and I'm so excited to get to know you a little bit more. For the audience, would you go into a little bit about your background and who you are?

SPEAKER_00 1:28

Sure, yeah. Um, so my name is Marissa Santorro, and um I am a former tech executive. I grew up in the New York City area, went to school in downtown Manhattan, and uh landed in uh the financial services environment, which is really where all the chops were at the time. We're talking about the you know early to mid-90s. Um ended up on Wall Street just out of college. I have a uh a 20-year career in technology and um pretty much lived and breeze uh the trading for environment, not knowing much about it at the time. You had a really it was really a synchronous type of environment. Um but I but I really you know I really thrived there. Had a couple of strikes against me though, uh as you can imagine, being a woman in tech, first of all, uh at that time. I mean, I I I think it's great. There's so many great STEM programs out there, uh, you know, inspiring you know, girls. But at the time, you know, there really weren't any women anything or role models. So um, you know, growing up with, you know, with a tech career was one strike, and then just being in a you know extremely abrasive, faith fast-paced environment, which was, you know, let's face it, primarily male dominated. Um so yeah, so that's uh that's sort of my background. Uh, I was there about uh two decades and um and here I am today. Today I do leadership training and and coaching for professionals.

SPEAKER_03 2:48

Yeah, and your um program is called In Our Shoes, right?

SPEAKER_00 2:52

Um yeah, well actually my the the the program that that we teach is is called the Gutsy Leadership System, but in our shoes is the uh is the company, is the coaching practice that uh that I launched several years ago. And um yep, yeah. So it was really meant at the time for women. Uh and then it just since you know branched out uh from there, really putting yourself in other people's shoes, understanding, you know, where they're coming from in business, right? In order to really uh understand your your client, quote unquote.

SPEAKER_03 3:22

So what uh kind of inspired the transfer from tech to leadership coaching?

SPEAKER_00 3:27

Oh well, that's yeah, that's probably a whole course in itself, but I'll tell you, I'll tell you the French version. Uh, you know, so we're working in Wall Street uh for in that number of years, there was there was a lot of you know panic periods, as you can imagine. Uh and just during the, I guess I if I had to pick a point, uh, during the Rocky Financial Services period, um, I found, I kind of just found myself in uh just coaching people, you know, really uh helping people get new jobs, new salaried. There was this very much very strong fight or flight type of reaction, you know, with so many companies laying off. And that's sort of when I realized that, you know, coaching was something that I just sort of did naturally and was really helping people. But I I think it was really when I started again, when I started talking about intuition and and just giving people, giving professionals permission to follow their instinct and just make what I like to call those gutsy moves in your career, uh, you know, not always following with head, but also with heart, with instinct. And so from that, I just started doing um afterwork events, coaching, and so someone eventually said, Marsa, did you ever consider, ever consider a life outside of uh financial services, ever think about coaching? And the truth was I hadn't. But, you know, taking my own advice, I followed my gut. And um, you know, not it wasn't overnight, but I eventually exited to um to where I am today doing career coaching and and leadership training.

SPEAKER_03 4:51

Awesome. It's so funny how you tend to fall into what you're kind of leaning into. Yeah. It sounds like you very much leaned into the leadership side of it and you didn't even know it until somebody encouraged you, which was a good leadership move on their half.

SPEAKER_00 5:06

Yes. Actually, you know, it's funny to say that because um, you know, if you look back at your life, you know, even some childhood, five years old, there were just things that, you know, that really attracted you. The books that you read, the the the radio, you know, shows you listen to, the people you you like hanging around with, the interests. It really wasn't random. And, you know, I kind of look back as a child. I um I don't know, like I was always into uh really uh motivational things and and always trying to be my best and that webbed off in a later life. But yeah, it's sort of it's interesting as a as an adult that you sort of see things kind of all come together. They were already there, always there, but you just sort of shine the light on it. Right, right.

SPEAKER_03 5:47

You brought up a little bit about your Gutsy Leadership. Uh do you want to go into that a little bit more and explain what that is?

SPEAKER_00 5:52

Sure, yeah. So um so Gutsy Leadership is a uh it's an online uh leadership curriculum that I teach uh also through my workshops and seminars. And it's really focused on mindset and and intuition in addition to practical set-by-step business and career tools that you you can apply and that work in your career. But but what I found is that, you know, 90% of your success is not really what you're doing on a day-to-day basis. Although I know we're, you know, we go to school, we spend a lot of money on our education, work hard, roll up our sleeves, and you know, we're sort of broomed to do do do, especially straight out of college. But what I found, and and I say this, you know, from my own experience in that very abrasive environment, was that, you know, you know, there comes a point where you you can't always follow the textbook. You know, you kind of have to make up the rules of the game. And those rules really don't come from anybody handing you a playbook. They come from yourself, they come from how you're feeling in the moment, whether you should speak up, whether you should uh you know, ask for something for yourself. And so all of that I I coupled and and and put together and packaged as what I call gutsy leadership, you know, that combination of influence through instinct. Um, so the career and business and intuition. Yeah. And people just like uh the word gutsy. I think that, you know, it's it sort of makes you feel movement and and um a little bit, you know, outside your comfort zone, which the space that we all need, right? Right.

SPEAKER_03 7:20

Courage over comfort. I think Brene Brown says that.

SPEAKER_00 7:23

Oh, I love that.

SPEAKER_03 7:24

Yes, I love that I I tell myself that daily.

SPEAKER_00 7:27

Yeah, especially right now. Yes. There's a lot of uh comf to a lot of discomfort going on right now.

SPEAKER_03 7:36

So what are some of those uh common themes that you see as you developed uh this guts leadership curriculum?

SPEAKER_00 7:43

Well, you know, when when I think about themes, I would say they're really based on what I've what I've what I've seen as pain points, pain points for professionals. And the most common pain points that I've seen, men and women included, are self-doubt, you know, that feeling of not feeling good enough, even if you have your expertise, even if you know your stuff, um, not being able to sell yourself well, uh, you might, again, you might be excellent at what you do, right? But if you're not selling it, then that's sort of, you know, falling off to the wayside. Uh another theme is where, you know, your career growth is stalled. You know, you're feeling stale and stagnant because you capped out and now you're stuck, you're feeling stuck. Not asking for help to articulate what you want and what you need from your career. And and I say this, I'm not just talking about, you know, the average professional coming out of college, you know, just starting out. I'm talking about, you know, even executives. I I coach managing directors who still struggle with this. You know, okay, great, I got my dream position. I'm at the level I worked so hard for. But I'm not really doing a good job now that I'm there, you know, really, really um articulating that. Um, and so moving into a new role for the first time where you're facing off to very similar management. You know, you need to grow accordingly. And so um, so that's a common pain point and struggle. But ultimately, everything I see, all these things really underlying all of them is some level of fear, which is usually the top fears that drive our actions are the fear of failure, the fear of being bullish, not doing it perfectly. And in financial services, the biggest fear is running out of time when you're under pressure to perform. So, yeah, so I would say those are the common things.

SPEAKER_03 9:20

The way you just said it made so much sense. And I think I've always realized that fear was an underlying concern of most people and how they tend to either feel stagnant in their career because it seems like fear would be prohibiting them from pushing forward with almost anything.

SPEAKER_00 9:36

That's right. It's really not just about your career. Um, I think on some level, change comes with fear because it's the unknown. And, you know, for me, I I don't think I ever, you know, looking back, I don't think I ever really had, ever have been in a work environment where there wasn't some sort of change. I mean, working on Wall Street was, you know, constantly, things constantly changing, requirements changing. You just kind of had to consistently think on your feet. It was just the normal. It wasn't like, hoha, I'm okay, today we're gonna do A, B, and C and every quarter we're gonna do that. It just changed so much that I think that, you know, that that underlying expectation is what really made me passionate to to you know help professionals realize that, you know, there's never gonna be a normal day. Um, just embrace the fear and see what you know, see what can come out of it. But certainly staying stagnant and with your hand, you know, sitting on your hands doesn't really get you anywhere in in any area, advancing in any part of your life. So yeah, fear is a big one.

SPEAKER_03 10:33

So when you say um embrace the fear or embrace that moment, do you find that they're a little bit different once they decide to face that fear or how they approach to face that fear?

SPEAKER_00 10:45

Oh yeah. I mean, when you're uh yes, I do. I feel like when you're approach when you're approaching fear, you know, your hands are shaking. You know, there's I do breathing exercises to help people remove anxiety. I have I have an exercise of it's called a five-minute phobia cure. I mean, it's not like a snap your fingers, just step into the fear and go. It's literally act well, what I like to say is acting in spite of the fear. It's okay to to have these um emotional triggers, which are inevitable in all of us. Um, you know, lots of panic attacks, you know. I I I uh with people, and even myself in the very beginning, being uh, you know, a woman in that environment. But, you know, with that all said, it it's just that we just need the tools to handle it. It's not that we're saying don't uh don't step into it or everything's gonna be just fine, you know, pat on the back. It's it's recognizing, you know, and also I think we know how we are. There are just certain things that we know we get anxiety from, even if you don't consider yourself an anxious person. Right. You know, we kind of just know that there are things that are gonna trigger you. And so if you know it, I think that's half the battle, just being aware of it and then stepping forward anyway. It's so funny. There's a picture of me from many years ago. I was speaking at there's like my first large speaking event, and I'm I'm at a podium and I'm holding on to that podium for dear life of my first my first live engagement, and I was so nervous. No one knew, right? I just did it. But I after that one event, I could never not speak in front of an audience again. Um, but I had to do it, right? We have to go through that rite of passage. And then when it's over, you know, it's like, you know, driving stick shift. You can never not know how to drive stick shift again. It could be 20 years or get on the bike. You know, you just remember. So I think we just have to really remember to be good good to ourselves. I think a lot of us are very hard on ourselves and um and just keep, you know, keep stepping into it and embracing it.

SPEAKER_03 12:32

It's so true, but you also don't know how you're gonna react until you're in the situation. So unless you're get to embrace the situation itself, you're never gonna know how to prepare yourself to react because you don't know how you will. So essentially embracing your fear, you're prepare yourself for your future self.

SPEAKER_00 12:49

That's right. You don't really know. Um, but if you uh I I talk about uh this this concept of high expectation, low attachment. Okay. So high expectation expectation is you know, you just really, you know, expect the best that you can, even if it's a minimal thing, and then just let it go because um it could really uh you could spend a long time just thinking and over analyzing things, but you know, versus just taking action and seeing where it goes with the high highest expectation.

SPEAKER_03 13:17

I love that. That's awesome. And this kind of leads into talking about embracing fear, kind of talks about what um we're hoping to talk about, which is speaking without apology. So do you want to go into that just a little bit before we dive deeper?

SPEAKER_00 13:31

Sure, yeah. Um, so speaking without apology is um it is actually uh it started off as a talk that I did. NYU had asked me to come up with a program where uh women specifically, it was really meant for women, but women specifically were diluting themselves in their communication. And I loved it. You know, I I don't I don't always sign up for either come my way, but this one really resonated, especially with gutsy leadership, because so much of being gutsy is communicating. And so speaking of that apology is one of the modules of the gutsy leadership system, uh well, it became one of the gutsy modules. And uh it's all about recognizing how, and not just women, it started off with women, but really how we we as a human race are diluting ourselves when we want something, when we just want to show up asking questions or negotiating and and not even realizing it, right? Not even realizing it. So it's been a really powerful subject that just sort of you know spread like wildfire. Uh people were really uh I actually just did a TEDx on that on this very thing that was really, really popular.

SPEAKER_03 14:34

It is, and I I completely understand, and even related to it today, because there was a situation where I received an email and all I wanted to do was kind of just crawl in a little bit and be like, oh, I should say I'm sorry, I approached this wrong. And then even just thinking about what we're talking about tonight, I was like, no, they are being very impolite in their email, and I'm not gonna apologize for them doing that. I'm gonna be direct in how I approach it. And so this is I it was so funny that we're talking about this tonight because I just related to it so much today. We do tend to go into that very apologetic, shrinking ourselves down a little bit. Wow. So I would I know one of the questions I sent you was how do you know if you need help in this area? I obviously already saw that today. But why do you find that? Or what are some common themes you see as you help coach people through this?

SPEAKER_00 15:30

Well, you know what? There's no doubt whether you need help in this area, and no doubt of the themes are because once you're aware of it, it's like this floodgates open. And actually, it's funny you mentioned this email example because I cover a whole section on email because it's a primary form of communication. But yeah, um, one of the major themes is where you feeling you're feeling disrespected in a meeting, uh, possibly shut down, possibly overlooked, even in an email, right? Um you could be saying that the dot da, fulling out your stuff and then seeking some sort of input and then crickets, you know. So that's the point of disrespect. Um, not being able to get to the point. And I I don't, you know, I don't say this with any shame or blame. It's really, it's really not that easy for uh I think people generally want to spend longer times than meetings and conversations, but there's only so many hours in a day. And so you really need to learn how to get to the point when you're in a meeting. And even if you called the meeting, you know, it doesn't really matter. So that's another theme. Um, your ideas and recommendations not being heard. That's a very common theme. Um, if you don't feel valued to your opinions. An another big one is if, you know, a thing I've seen is is if you struggle with communicating with those who are in positions of authority to you. Not that you have a problem with people in those positions, but you know, might come back from you know something in childhood, and so rationally you feel like it's fine, but you know, some some dilution is happening where you just sort of acquiesce to everything or nod your head a lot. Um, I think most people sign up to to say, yeah, you know, I really want to learn more about how to speak without apology, but it's not until I sort of shine the spotlight on these things where they realize, you know what, I didn't re I thought I was the only one that that felt that way. And so it's an awareness, you know, it really goes back to the self-awareness, which is really what factory leadership is about. It's the business leadership, but it's really primarily starts with the self-leadership and self-control.

SPEAKER_03 17:25

Oh wow. So why would you say it's important to grow in this specific area?

SPEAKER_00 17:30

Well, um, it is one of the main things is you can't really walk into a conversation or write an email. Even if you were going out to buy a car, you know, this applies everywhere if you're not intentional. So, you know, it's about being intentional on why you're there and what you're hoping to walk away with. And when you're intentional, you have so much more clarity around not just what you're trying to achieve. I know we sort of always go in and, you know, from place of, well, what can I walk away from, but also understanding who you're speaking to and what they're looking for, what are their results that they're looking for, and putting yourself in their shoes uh to really create that engagement. Um, you know, that's really where a lot of conversations drop off, where they people say, Well, I don't really feel like I'm being heard. Well, that might very well be true. Maybe your manager or your peers are tuning out, but how are you gaining clarity on what's keeping them up at night? And what do you think you need to have taped to your forehead so that they'll actually listen to you? You have to put yourself in your quote unquote client's shoes. Um, but you know, so the in clarity, the intention, and and also I would think when you start speaking with anthropology, it really raises your confidence level. You go from this negative self-talk, limiting beliefs to, you know, that feeds into a you know, weakening your body. You ever feel like, you know, you have like sort of like this this your body goes weak in your gut because of the limiting beliefs, and then that lowers your confidence level. And then now all of a sudden, because you have lower confidence level, you're showing up with weak language, diluting your value. So it really all starts from that mindset and the negative self-talk, but we're not connecting that together. We're just, you know, going in sort of blind and not realizing, hey, you know what, I can actually be intentional about what I want to say, what I want to hear, what do I want to ask beforehand so that there's some sort of control and I'm not working other people's agenda and they're not working mine. Right.

SPEAKER_03 19:22

That's so important. You have to have control of your own agenda, but in a good way. In a good way. In a manipulative way. But like you can control a lot. So you keep saying be intentional. What would you say is that is there a first step to being intentional? Is there a few steps? How does that work?

SPEAKER_00 19:40

Oh, wow, that's a great question. Um, I call it the rule of three. Um, actually, the rule of three applies everywhere in your life. I even teach my kids this. Whenever they ask me for something, like mom, I need need some something on Roblox, that's a video game. If I need something, I always say, don't talk to me until you come up with a rule of three. And and what that means is before you ask me for something, or before you're going to ask for something, or or even if you're just not even asking, just setting an agenda, you want to talk about something that's being held up, approval, whatever it might be, before you go in, just have three things in your head pocket that you want to hit beats to. It's about hitting the beats. You can hit those beats and make sure you walk away with three things. And I I often coach people to say, you know, well, here's where we are. And then you you outline it to them. This is number one problem, number two problem, number three, and here, and then you just open up on the table what you want to talk about. That also helps the listener because now you're getting to the point, you know, going back to what I said before. I live and breathe by the rule of three. I think if most people in this world did that, meetings would be a lot shorter. Yes. People would it would come across a lot more clear. There wouldn't be any defensive acts or reactions. There would be responses instead of reactions. So yeah, that's sort of like the magic formula, I guess.

SPEAKER_03 20:52

So would you say that's the first step to um speaking without apology? Absolutely. Yeah. Do you have a story or somebody who you coach that you can share about when how they applied this and how they saw a difference?

SPEAKER_00 21:05

Oh, I have tons and tons of stories. Well, I would say um, you know, just using my last example of, you know, when you're walking into a meeting and you sort of I I work with a lot of professionals that, you know, it's a knee-jerk reaction. I was there, so I, you know, I'm very empathic to it. But it is so easy for us to put the blame on the other person or the other team and say, you know what, I really don't feel like my unit is uh really listening. I don't feel like I'm being heard, my ideas are being um, you know, jumped on or given credit. And what I like to do is is I I like to flip that around and say, well, how can you take responsibility for making sure your ideas are heard? Assuming that, you know, I know you don't have any control over other people. What can you do and how can you show up? And so, you know, when you're intentional, you can say, you know what, here are the results. Here's here's the why behind why I'm proposing this idea, for instance, right? So now you're bringing in the rule of three, you're giving them three reasons why your proposal is a good. idea and let's just take it even further. Now you're interrupted because that's another common theme, like being interrupted in the meeting. Now you're saying, excuse me, I'm not finished yet. You know, and you could feel free to rip lift the little finger, you know, like, excuse me, I'm not finished yet. You know, a lot of people just allow themselves to be shut down. But just because someone interrupts you doesn't mean they're allowed to keep talking. You know, so there is also speaking with apology, just letting them know, you know, well, let me finish my thought. And it does it's not confrontational. It's just like, hey, you know, give me some airtime while I had started speaking. Um yes.

SPEAKER_03 22:34

I I I had three things that I wanted to talk about. I only got to two. Let me get to the one last one and yeah I'm almost finished.

SPEAKER_00 22:40

I have done the points. Um it's really important. I think it's gonna make it, you know, I think it would I think this could be impactful. Let's just talk about it. Let's get it out on the table. And owning your power. And that's really what speaking without apology is it's it's owning your power. But a lot of times people confuse the word power with control. And I know that there are several we we know there are a lot of people in this world that abuse power, but power is also influence. And my mission in life is to help you know develop leaders of influence. And if you want to be a leader of influence you have to be be willing to speak what you want to say in in in as authentic way as possible. But don't don't allow yourself and I really do say that you know in every aspect that you can think of don't allow yourself to be shut down because it's not that they're shutting you down. It's like it's akin to like moving to the back of the room or sweating rolling your chair to the end of the room and not even being in the conversation anymore. So that's a typical example.

SPEAKER_03 23:34

When you talk about this it all makes sense but putting it into practice I I even hear myself saying this and I have a military background and I'm like I just hear that B word because sometimes it's put on the the and it for those that didn't ex I it's the cuss word. I don't want to say it. But the people are being called bossy or the other one. And it's it's one of those things where it's it's a I would say it leans into a fear especially for women to be perceived as such. So how do you help deter people away from not thinking that they're going into that perception but taking back their power?

SPEAKER_00 24:12

Well the first way it's funny you did on uh something I wanted to share anyway um because the the first way um you start speaking without apology the first step to speaking without apology is to answer one question and this question will change your life before you move into a before you get on a phone call before you get in a meeting before you get write an email first thing you want to ask yourself is how do I want to be perceived? All right how do I want to be perceived because the answer to that question your answer to that question will dictate how others respond to you and support your advancement. So and you're tweaking it you know you're tweaking it for different people there's not like a one one time script that you use for everybody but you know if you're clear if you're talking to a peer versus a manager versus a partner versus you know I'll go back to the car salesman you know someone's trying to sell you a car how do I want to be perceived you know do I want to show that I'm an educated consumer that I've done my homework or do I want them to lead me and give me all the bells and whistles and then give me the you know the $20,000 markup. You know what I'm saying? Right. So it's really just answering that question how do I want to be perceived and then that's the clarity. That's the intention and you go from there pop in your rule of three and then the conversation goes forward. But it you you show up it's a lot of energy as well I do a lot of energy work. It's not just you know these principles it's it's really bleeding your body and recognizing that that's energy that people can feel in fact I've done experiments uh you know just little trials and you can show up in a room and not say a word and people can still feel your energy just being intentional. You know have you ever been in the conversation where you know the pregnant pause you're talking and then all of a sudden there's no talk you know they're asking you a question and you don't answer right away. You wait three seconds that can be the longest three seconds of your life but just by pausing and not saying anything for three seconds you've just taken back your power and you're thinking about what do I want to say? Maybe you're buying yourself some time you know maybe you're thinking about well I'm not going to answer too quickly because I have to buy myself some time think about how I really want to answer. So there's all these little strategies that really play into again owning your power but in in the most offensive way.

SPEAKER_03 26:20

Okay. That's really interesting. I never thought of having a different perception every single time but it makes a lot of sense because I've always thought of you are your brand. So you want to stay consistent in your brand but what you're saying makes a lot of sense too because if you are a leader and you're leading a team you want to portray a different perception to them or perspective and kind of portray yourself in a different way but to a friend or family you're showing casing yourself a little bit differently to them too.

SPEAKER_00 26:51

Yeah I mean them I I definitely uh agree with you know keeping your brand it's actually one of the other things that I talk about you know soft skills and personal branding this really this really does shouldn't take you off your brand and what your mission uh when I mean tweaking it I really mean putting yourself in the shoes of the person you're speaking to. So if you want to be perceived as an educated consumer who knows the car that they want to buy, then show up as an educated consumer, you know, owning owning that. If you want to show up as someone who's looking for more challenge and more responsibility then show up with that. But using your authentic personality while you're doing it it's really important because you know we've all been in those meetings where we are conversations where people really they're just sort of taking on other people's personalities, you know, saying what others want to hear. So it's really just making sure you're consistent with your personality and your brand and your unique charm factor I guess is what you know I like to call it your charm. But yeah I'm glad you I'm glad you clarified that because I definitely don't want to give a um you know perception that you should you should change based on him talking to it's really just tweaking the conversation so that you're showing up yeah in the best possible way.

SPEAKER_03 27:58

And it leads back to what you're talking about about intentionality too because if you're intentional about how you want to tweak it to reach that audience that makes a lot of sense too.

SPEAKER_00 28:07

Yeah just putting yourself in their shoes and saying well how would I want them to feel when they walk out of this room.

SPEAKER_03 28:13

Mm-hmm. Oh I love that question.

SPEAKER_00 28:15

Yeah that's that's actually another um besides the rule of three that's my my second strategy how do I how do I want them to feel you know speakers do this all the time before they leave an audience how do I want them to feel how do I want my especially if you're having a difficult conversation with a colleague right and you know that there's a tension if you just sort of you know put yourself in their shoes and say well how ideally do I want the result to feel them to feel at the end of this this conversation. So you talked about the first step is there a few more steps to speaking without apology or do you kind of Yeah well I I think that there are some examples I can share just practices because once you hear them you'll never do them again. And this goes back to diluting your value. The first one I would say is the word just um perfect example. So let's say you know you pick up the phone you're calling a a colleague or even your manager and you say uh hey you know Sarah I'm just checking in to see how things are going or I I just want you to know that I've got I'm working on that project or I just called because I have this issue you know the word just I know it's just a four letter word it seems so you know trivial but that word just alone has just diluted your value right so if you turn that around and and you say you know what instead of saying I'm just checking in you can say hey how is the project going or instead of saying I I just called you could say hey I'm I'm calling to see what you might need. Instead of saying I just want you to know you can say here's what we need to know you know owning your power. And we do this subconsciously you know I so I even catch myself doing this. It's not like you know it's it's sort of like ingrained in our muscle but it's almost like we feel like we're inconveniencing people and we're interrupting and we want to be polite and we struggle with that. We struggle with being too assertive but but in truth just by removing that that one word and turning it around energetically you feel stronger you know physically you feel stronger and you're not lowering yourself and you're not dividing yourself. So that's uh that's one example another example I can give a lot of people get a kick out of this but let's just say you know you miss your your weekly meeting with your team it's a key meeting and you're at a dentist appointment and just you know you're late rushing in and you say I'm so sorry I'm late but I had a dentist appointment. Right? I do give this example in the context of of women versus men because it does happen more with women. So you say I'm so sorry I'm late but I had a dentist appointment. You know if you flip that around a man will come in if if it were a man who did the same thing he would say morning I had a dentist appointment catch me up right he keeps it light through he keeps it light he keeps it airy the you know the more it's like the more focus we we put on things the more we bring attention to our situation and then it just shines a spotlight on you you're feeling red and embarrassed. So just remove the word but there's no butt. Just you know state the situation and move on.

SPEAKER_03 31:15

So that's speaking without apology that's something I've applied I've put and instead of but oh good I I had read something about that and it it's hard it's almost like I'm throwing myself out there but I reread the sentence and I'm like oh it's much more direct. It's much more non-apologetic.

SPEAKER_00 31:36

Yeah exactly yeah I mean it's also how you feel if you feel like it it sounds okay you know the end or you know I never tell anyone to I never put words in people's mouth. I just I I my hope is to really help professionals realize that how it's not so much what you're saying it's also how you say it, but but the words that you use words matter. They really do matter and and it could just be taken in such a different context. You know I think if someone says do you think Sarah do you think you can handle this project and you look at your manager and you say well I think so I think I can take a look I think I can work versus saying you know what I'm confident that I can get this done in two weeks. Or I fully expect with enough budget and resources yeah you know I let or I'm confident that I can but let me get back and let me get back to you. See I just use the word box but you know the truth is is that if you don't have certainty in your own capabilities then why would you expect anyone else to and that's leading with influence you know that's how people really advance in leadership um you know just really uh recognizing just little tweaks you know that you can make to make yourself sound it feels feel more confident.

SPEAKER_03 32:44

Mm-hmm just a little bit about my background for I know that you know that I'm military, but when I transferred over to corporate and I work at an airline and it they're very known for being friendly and fun, I had to change my whole communication method.

SPEAKER_00 33:01

See that's what I was talking about.

SPEAKER_03 33:04

You changed yes I did I felt it too but it was almost like I came it was like I forced myself to be away for the military because I needed to be that way because of what I was going to be perceived as a leader as a military officer I needed to be I could still be myself in person but when I was talking to a general or a colonel or an email it was always very much direct, straightforward. And then when I came to my corporate job it was I really had to be fluffy which is something that I've combined now. I feel like I've kind of met them in the middle and that's who I actually am. But it's you have to add that how are you? Because otherwise it's considered mean in their eyes. They were like why are you upset? I'm like no I'm just emailing you about this one thing I wanted to check in on. Right. And it's so it is a perception that I it's just kind of finding out who you are at least that's what it was for me was finding out who I was and kind of meeting them in the middle where I felt comfortable with their style but it felt still like me on both ends of the spectrum.

SPEAKER_00 34:14

Right. And that and that's it you just hit the nail on the head. Exactly so that's what's speaking without apology it has to that's what it's all about it it has to feel authentic with you. It's your personal brand, your personal charisma you know the minute you start taking on and I've worked with a lot of professionals that you know try take on personalities of their leadership, you know, that's how cultures are formed. You know if you work for the you know um the iron man or the iron woman then guess what? You know the apples don't fall far from that tree. You're gonna get a lot of mini iron men and women. But if you're willing to you know really go beyond that and realize you know what this is the culture but I still can maintain my own personal personality and I could still adjust there are rituals with what you described as you know certain things that you do in in in different environments but I you can still tweak it but as long as you don't feel like internally that you're being someone else you know and people can really feel that you know people can always tell so I'm really I love that example because especially with your background you know you meet all types of different people.

SPEAKER_03 35:18

That was the biggest culture shock for me. So I could understand where people are used to doing their emails or talking a certain way and then if they're trying to reach into their authenticity it's very vulnerable to try to change the way that you approach things but feel truer to yourself um while approaching yeah it was very different but I learned a lot about myself and how you can grow with that. Right. Yeah this is such a good topic thank you so much for coming on the show and I really just having that email today I was like there's so much that I mean I can learn everyone can learn about how to approach their emails and how to approach meetings and the kind of office culture that you interact with on a day to day and the way that you explained it, it can make such a big difference and with very small intentional actions.

SPEAKER_00 36:12

It really does and then and then it just you know you really work it up to a you know you might start speaking without apology in a very small group routine huddle and then over time you know now you're in the boardroom or now you're in a a larger senior level audience and and you know but you've inched it up over time. It's not like you know you go ho hog and start speaking without apology behind a microphone. You know you might even start you know blogging is such a big thing but maybe you'll start writing articles or maybe you'll start sharing on social platforms. You just start, you know, I I work with a a a lot of people that say you know and I've even started speaking without apology as a parent. Now it works that way as well and you know kids I have two little ones they can smell weakness. That's one thing about children right if you're not strong they will smell it and they will you know you give them a finger they'll take the whole hand. So you you kind of have to be clear and intentional with our kids too. And I learned those lessons. There was one thing I wanted to mention when you talk about the email just in terms of like writing I have seen patterns with younger professionals that are just out of college let's just say one or two years where they tend to use a lot of exclamation points at the end. You know hi you know or hi David exclamation point I just want you to know you know there's a judge I just want you to know I'm taking care of that status report exclamation point. You know and and I've gotten a lot of feedback from people who say you know I've been told by my management that I need to lose the exclamation points and I I explained to them why it's just you know it's just like going back to that question. You're not being perceived as someone it it's the people pleasing you know it's like I just want to please you I just want to make sure that I'm setting excitement and fun.

SPEAKER_03 37:51

It's not really your job to make people's lives fun or happy it's it's your job to do your job and then bring your personality if you want to share a joke and put an exclamation it's just overdone you know completely there's a I don't know if you have you seen the meme where it's an example of an email saying hi exclamation point I'm gonna write a sentence without an exclamation point period and it's like I'm gonna add one here so you know I'm fun exclamation point thank you all you should find it it's perfect example because you do feel you're like is this too much should I even add it here it's almost like an art yeah yeah it you're so right I well first of all I have not seen that meme I'm gonna be looking that up one of my next training I related to it a little too much.

SPEAKER_00 38:35

Wow I didn't know um no but I mean you know and of course you know if it's someone that you're chummy with um oh exclamation point happy that's fine because it's it's like you know it's a friend or you feel comfortable or they tell you the most ridiculous jokes then you just laugh at them anyway. You know but if it's someone that you don't really have that good especially if someone you know an authority position of authority you know you just want to be think just go back to that question. How do I want to be perceived do I want to be perceived as fun loving and and people pleasing or do I want to be perceived as I've got this. You gave me that report I've got it one week it's done. Don't even worry about it. We don't even have to email again. You know what I'm saying? So it's uh it is an art form. I really like that. Uh I I might take that from my next seminar. You'll find it I'm sure you'll find it on Google really easily I I really want to speak to the the confident I know a lot of times we think they're not confident and this this topic is not about not being confident. So I want to make sure there's no confusion on that. This is about you know your expertise you know even if you're just one or two years graduating from college you know yourself. You know you're working hard you're smart. And if you are struggling with some of the things we talked about here on this podcast know that first of all you're not alone and also it doesn't mean you're not confident. It just means that you have to you know you really just have to show up with clarity maybe a little bit more clarity which will have you be perceived and owning your confidence in an even greater way. You know just you know really taking what you know and and being able to communicate that so that people can feel your clarity and feel your strength and just be really good to yourself because I can tell you that even to this day I still catch myself with the just and the butts and um it it's it's just uh it's just being aware of how you sound and and being in control of how you want to be perceived.

SPEAKER_03 40:31

So that's great. We talked a little bit about gutsy leadership and in our shoes. Do you want to talk about and share where folks can find more information about you and your programs.

SPEAKER_00 40:43

Sure yeah so the website is nrshoes.com that's I and as a nancy the letter r shoes dot com. Uh you could also feel free to reach out to me at Marissa at nrshoes.com inrshoes dot com and uh my name is N-A-R-I-S-A. Hopefully the TEDx will be out in a uh a month or two so you could also Google speaking without apology when that happens um and uh if you'd like to learn more and happy to share.

SPEAKER_03 41:10

This is great Marissa thank you so much and I know our audience learned so much from this today and uh I look forward to seeing that TED talk too I'm excited to see oh thank you I am too with the with the current crisis everything's been delayed but uh I appreciate that Sarah keep on doing this they people need to hear more more leadership podcasts that are real you know conversations and that's really what I know your mission is to talk about what's not you're welcome thank you it's it's quite an honor thanks for listening to another episode of Lead Into It If you enjoyed this episode it would mean a lot to me if you would leave a review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify to help future listeners. If you want to learn more about the podcast or me go to leadinto it dot co that's leadinto it dot co thanks again